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R

radeck

Guest
In Missouri:In Oct-98, a home was purchased by my employer (a handicapped man) and myself as a primary home for him, my daughter and me. I put down $15,000 and he put down $9,000. We have each contributed equally since towards the costs involved. I work for him and he works outside, but he has since been advised to 'go on disability' and he wants out of his share in the home. Since I didn't qualify for a mortgage loan, only his name appears on the loan and deed. The only thing I have is a typed agreement between us that "we entered into a joint venture to purchase the property and that we each own 50% and that neither can sell without the other's permission." Both signatures are on the un-notarized document. Is this enough to protect my interest?
2nd question: My step-father wants to deed a small partial lot property in J County to me. Since the 'resort' property was purchased in 1972, a band of "Property Owners" has formed an association and are about to levy fees and they state that "if the fees are not paid by July 31, 2001, a lein will be placed on the property and the property sold on the courthouse steps".
The majority of the "Property Owners" who voted in favor of the fee assessment, as I understand it, is ONE person who owns 400 or so parcels of land and his son is the association president. Can they do that? Neither my Mother, nor my step-father, ever voted to join an association, much less vote for the assessment of fees and all land use restrictions by the original seller (who went bankrupt) ended in 1974.
 


R

radeck

Guest
Please Reply With Specifics

I'd appreciate some honest specifics.
Thanks
 
R

radeck

Guest
I am still looking for honest specifics to the questions I asked.
Thank you.
 

HomeGuru

Senior Member
radeck said:
In Missouri:In Oct-98, a home was purchased by my employer (a handicapped man) and myself as a primary home for him, my daughter and me. I put down $15,000 and he put down $9,000. We have each contributed equally since towards the costs involved. I work for him and he works outside,
**My response: what does he work outside mean? He does gardening, outside sales, etc. ?
*********************************************


but he has since been advised to 'go on disability'
**My response: Who advised him? Attorney, CPA, real estate agent, government official, you, medical doctor, his cronies etc.?
*************************************************
and he wants out of his share in the home. Since I didn't qualify for a mortgage loan, only his name appears on the loan and deed.
**My response: you put down $15,000 and pay for other expenses, yet you have no title or legal ownership of the property? That is not too smart. What happens to your share if he dies, gets hit by a truck, tell you take a hike etc.
*************************************************

The only thing I have is a typed agreement between us that "we entered into a joint venture to purchase the property and that we each own 50% and that neither can sell without the other's permission." Both signatures are on the un-notarized document. Is this enough to protect my interest?
**My response: great, you want to play attorney, that's fine. Guess what, if he has title to the property, he can certainly sell it without your approval, permission and without paying you 50% of the profits.
I am not privy to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You need someone with a law degree to review it for you.
The agreement is not notarized so what if he says, no, I did not sign it, that is not my signature?
************************************************

2nd question: My step-father wants to deed a small partial lot property in J County to me. Since the 'resort' property was purchased in 1972, a band of "Property Owners" has formed an association and are about to levy fees and they state that "if the fees are not paid by July 31, 2001, a lein will be placed on the property and the property sold on the courthouse steps".
The majority of the "Property Owners" who voted in favor of the fee assessment, as I understand it, is ONE person who owns 400 or so parcels of land and his son is the association president. Can they do that? Neither my Mother, nor my step-father, ever voted to join an association, much less vote for the assessment of fees and all land use restrictions by the original seller (who went bankrupt) ended in 1974.
My response: If the restrictions are recorded on title, it runs with the land even if the property is in J county, is resort, there is no HOA, the Seller filed BK, your Mom and stepfather did not agree to join a HOA and/or did not agree to the fees etc.
A current title report needs to be obtained and reviewed to determine what the exact restrictions are.
You and your family have these legal issues yet do not want to hire an attorney.

My response to your intial post still stands.
I repeat, hire an attorney.

Now do you understand why I stated "Hire an attorney.?"
 
R

radeck

Guest
HomeGuru said:
radeck said:
In Missouri:In Oct-98, a home was purchased by my employer (a handicapped man) and myself as a primary home for him, my daughter and me. I put down $15,000 and he put down $9,000. We have each contributed equally since towards the costs involved. I work for him and he works outside,
**My response: what does he work outside mean? He does gardening, outside sales, etc. ?
*********************************************
Answer: I work inside the home. He works outside the home for a company.

but he has since been advised to 'go on disability'
**My response: Who advised him? Attorney, CPA, real estate agent, government official, you, medical doctor, his cronies etc.?
*************************************************
Answer: His personal physician advised him.

and he wants out of his share in the home. Since I didn't qualify for a mortgage loan, only his name appears on the loan and deed.
**My response: you put down $15,000 and pay for other expenses, yet you have no title or legal ownership of the property? That is not too smart. What happens to your share if he dies, gets hit by a truck, tell you take a hike etc.
*************************************************
Reply: No, it wasn't too smart, but I trusted him and thought it would always work out for the better.

The only thing I have is a typed agreement between us that "we entered into a joint venture to purchase the property and that we each own 50% and that neither can sell without the other's permission." Both signatures are on the un-notarized document. Is this enough to protect my interest?
**My response: great, you want to play attorney, that's fine. Guess what, if he has title to the property, he can certainly sell it without your approval, permission and without paying you 50% of the profits.
I am not privy to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You need someone with a law degree to review it for you.
The agreement is not notarized so what if he says, no, I did not sign it, that is not my signature?
************************************************
Reply: I suppose he can say anything, although I don't think he will. But, could he prove that in court? Even among the handicapped, his handwriting would withstand analysis to prove he did sign it.
Playing attorney wasn't exactly my intent, but now that I'm digging for information before actually going to an attorney, what about the contract? There was:
1. We mutually assented
2. There was consideration (the property) and oral
consideration (to provide a home for my daughter after her mother died, a condition I required in order to continue to work for him.)
3. Parties were competent
4. It was a lawful pursuit
5. The agreed period of time was until we each agreed on the nature of the selling, although a specific time frame was not stated and perpetuity wasn't used.
6. It was in the form required by law. For property, the law requires it to be written.


2nd question: My step-father wants to deed a small partial lot property in J County to me. Since the 'resort' property was purchased in 1972, a band of "Property Owners" has formed an association and are about to levy fees and they state that "if the fees are not paid by July 31, 2001, a lein will be placed on the property and the property sold on the courthouse steps".
The majority of the "Property Owners" who voted in favor of the fee assessment, as I understand it, is ONE person who owns 400 or so parcels of land and his son is the association president. Can they do that? Neither my Mother, nor my step-father, ever voted to join an association, much less vote for the assessment of fees and all land use restrictions by the original seller (who went bankrupt) ended in 1974.
My response: If the restrictions are recorded on title, it runs with the land even if the property is in J county, is resort, there is no HOA, the Seller filed BK, your Mom and stepfather did not agree to join a HOA and/or did not agree to the fees etc.
A current title report needs to be obtained and reviewed to determine what the exact restrictions are.

Reply: I've seen the title and it has no restrictions.
I've seen the origianl contract and all restrictions ended in 1974 according to that.

You and your family have these legal issues yet do not want to hire an attorney.

Reply: I will eventually see an attorney. I promise!

My response to your intial post still stands.
I repeat, hire an attorney.

Now do you understand why I stated "Hire an attorney.?"

Reply: Yes, I do and I always knew that.
My advice to others, "Never attempt to 'save' money by not seeking legal advice from an attorney before entering into a contract for property."

But, I needed you to expand, like you did today.
Question: Now, may I ask you to respond to the additions I made to this post?
Thanks in advance.
 
R

radeck

Guest
My Rights

The only thing I have is a typed agreement between us that "we entered into a joint venture to purchase the property and that we each own 50% and that neither can sell without the other's permission." Both signatures are on the un-notarized document. Is this enough to protect my interest?

**My response: great, you want to play attorney, that's fine. Guess what, if he has title to the property, he can certainly sell it without your approval, permission and without paying you 50% of the profits.
I am not privy to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You need someone with a law degree to review it for you.
The agreement is not notarized so what if he says, no, I did not sign it, that is not my signature?

Well, this IS the terms on the contract: we entered into a joint venture to purchase the property and that we each own 50% and that neither can sell without the other's permission.

And I saw a real estate attorney.
He said: As to whether I can prevent him from selling, 50% of the judges we might go beore would hold that part enforcable; 50% would not.
As to the 50% ownership, that is 100% enforcable and I would get 50% of the proceeds without question.
Further, I was told that I 'could' hold this up for quite some time waiting for the permission to sell judgement and if I won, fine! If I lost, it would buy me the time I needed.
So, Mr. HomeGuru, you don't know enough about Missouri law or any law to be in here advising anyone!
 
B

busta

Guest
HomeGuru said:

**My response: great, you want to play attorney, that's fine. Guess what, if he has title to the property, he can certainly sell it without your approval, permission and without paying you 50% of the profits. I am not privy to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You need someone with a law degree to review it for you.

To which you lawyer said

He said: As to whether I can prevent him from selling, 50% of the judges we might go beore would hold that part enforcable; 50% would not. As to the 50% ownership, that is 100% enforcable and I would get 50% of the proceeds without question.

Point one---This guy may or may not be able to sell, 50/50 chance. HG chose glass half empty, you chose glass half full. Your lawyer told you nothing, could be half full or half empty. I don't see where HG missed this one.

Point two---As to you receiving 50% of proceeds of sale, HG responded " I am not privy to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You need someone with a law degree to review it for you. " again HG recognized the complexity of the issue, and AGAIN advised you to see a lawyer. Don't see where he missed this one either.

Point three--- You wrote "Further, I was told that I 'could' hold this up for quite some time waiting for the permission to sell judgement and if I won, fine! If I lost, it would buy me the time I needed." What time did you need? For what? You never posed this to HG, yet you hold him responsible for not answering it?

Point four---HG originaly told you to seek legal council. You ignored him and demanded answers from contributors to this site. When you did get an answer, you contented its validity. Finally, when you got the glass half empty answer you didn't like, you sought council.

I think you not only owe HG a huge apology, but also gratitude for prompting you to seek the legal council he advised from the beginning. His advice was dead on, although hard to swallow, and prompted you and your contentious attitude to get someone to properly represent you.
 
R

radeck

Guest
OK busta

To which you lawyer said

He said: As to whether I can prevent him from selling, 50% of the judges we might go beore would hold that part enforcable; 50% would not. As to the 50% ownership, that is 100% enforcable and I would get 50% of the proceeds without question.

Point one---This guy may or may not be able to sell, 50/50 chance. HG chose glass half empty, you chose glass half full. Your lawyer told you nothing, could be half full or half empty. I don't see where HG missed this one.

Counterpoint one--- HG's response is for you to view, but I'll repost it: **My response: great, you want to play attorney, that's fine. Guess what, if he has title to the property, he can certainly sell it without your approval, permission and without paying you 50% of the profits.

He said, "He can certainly sell it without your approval, permission and without paying you 50% of the profits."

You call that an accurate representation of the legal facts?
Half empty or half full, HG said my glass was comletely empty!

Point two---As to you receiving 50% of proceeds of sale, HG responded " I am not privy to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You need someone with a law degree to review it for you. " again HG recognized the complexity of the issue, and AGAIN advised you to see a lawyer. Don't see where he missed this one either.

Counterpoint two---HG was, in fact, privy to the terms. It was in my original post and here it is again: "we entered into a joint venture to purchase the property and that we each own 50% and that neither can sell without the other's permission."

Point three--- You wrote "Further, I was told that I 'could' hold this up for quite some time waiting for the permission to sell judgement and if I won, fine! If I lost, it would buy me the time I needed." What time did you need? For what? You never posed this to HG, yet you hold him responsible for not answering it?

Counterpoint three---What I needed time for is not germain to the legal question.
And I informed HG of what the attorney said ... I did NOT hold him responsible for not answering it, since I didn't pose the question.

Point four---HG originaly told you to seek legal council. You ignored him and demanded answers from contributors to this site. When you did get an answer, you contented its validity. Finally, when you got the glass half empty answer you didn't like, you sought council.

Counterpoint four---I did NOT ignore this "advice". I always intended to seek legal advice on this question IF I was forced into it.
99.9% of all people who seek advice here KNOW they should seek legal advice. They use this website for knowledge before going in.
What if I'd taken HG's advice: You don't have a snowball's chance in hell, but see an attorney anyway.
Why? Why would I see an attorney if I HAD NO CHANCE? If my glass is completely empty, I can actually SAVE money by forgetting it! Luckily, I had enough sense to ignore HG's "advice" and get on with what I had to do.

I think you not only owe HG a huge apology, but also gratitude for prompting you to seek the legal council he advised from the beginning. His advice was dead on, although hard to swallow, and prompted you and your contentious attitude to get someone to properly represent you

Lastly, I owe HG nothing but contempt.
If all we expected was "see an attorney", why would we come here to get "legal advice"?
His advice was not dead on, but dead wrong! And, like I said, if I had actually followed his lead, I would have forgotten the whole matter because it was a lost cause.
Learn to read, busta!
 
B

busta

Guest
Ah, scalding rebuttal indeed. With this finely honed ability to argue you SHOULD be a lawyer. My assessment of you stands, you are very contentious. Contentious-Quarrelsome, Webster's Expanded Dictionary. This would make sense, since you are from the 'Show-me-State'. And before you feel that I have taken a cheap shot at Missourians, I too can trace my bloodline to that fine state.

Let's clear up a few things before we play, shall we?

Glass half empty or glass half full is a figure of speech which describes a view or position that is either pessimistic, taking an unfavorable view of affairs, or optimistic, tendency to take the most hopeful view.

Pessimism would also include seeing the glass as totally empty.

In an effort to remove any confusion regarding my statements, I will refrain from using anything but plain, literal English.

1) HG offered you a pessimistic view of your state of affairs. Worst case scenario. A proper application of what I had written shows your counterpoint to be devoid, or without, any pertinent, or appropriate, comments. In fact, when you claim "Half empty or half full, HG said my glass was comletely empty!" you actually reinforce, bolster, strengthen, my assertion that HG was offering you a pessimistic view. In addition, you tried to sneak the issue concerning the dispersement, or splitting up, of monies into counterpoint one. I clearly, as a thorough reading would show, addressed this in point two.

2) Once again HG offered you a pessimistic view. It was NOT inaccurate, or wrong, based upon the information you provided in your original post. The only claim you had on the property was a typed letter, and from your stinging counterpoint where you claim these were ALL the facts, the letter contained ONLY these words "we entered into a joint venture to purchase the property and that we each own 50% and that neither can sell without the other's permission". The only signatures on the letter belonged to you and the man with whom you made the agreement. This informal letter was not notarized. You had no witnesses to this transaction, professional or otherwise. No description of "the property". It could have been a roll of toilet paper. The letter then becomes about as useful. Especially since you mention no witness to the transaction, the man could have signed it under duress, which is plausible since it appears you were providing some type of care for him and he was handicap.

Legally, the man whom you shared a home with held the title in his name, and his alone. This means that legally the property is his to do with as he pleases. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove otherwise.

Unless, or course, you had other supporting documentation that you neglected to tell us about. You had bank records or cancelled checks to prove a financial involvement with "the property". The 'letter' actually contained more than a fragmented and vague sentence. Ah, yes, we should have known about the financial involvement because you did claim to have given him $15,000. Alas, you forgot to mention how this was dispersed. Cash, check, wampum.

Based solely on the information you proved, I think HG gave you better than a worst case scenario. I'm sure this is why he replied "I am not privy to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You need someone with a law degree to review it for you." He at least gave you the benefit of the doubt that your letter was more than you presented here. As to his comment "great, you want to play attorney, that's fine", you yourself admit it was foolish to have done this without legal representation. "No, it wasn't too smart, but I trusted him and thought it would always work out for the better."

3)The use of the word 'further' indicates that you are trying to advance a thought or point. The point you were trying to make was that HG's advice was unqualified. The manner in which you wrote the statement shows that you hold HG culpable, or to blame, for having missed that point.

4)You actually did NOT want to retain an attorney. You believe you are just as smart, or smarter, than they are. They are a waste of money. That is why you did not use a lawyer originally. That is why you would not go unless forced. "I always intended to seek legal advice on this question IF I was forced into it." This is why you hold HG in contempt, or in scorn, for the advice he gave. It was contrary to what YOU believed should happen. With the information you provided, he could come to no other conclusion (see #2 above). Now, happily for you, you found a good lawyer who agrees with YOU. So therefore HG is bad. I'm sure your lawyer had more information (#2 again).

If 99.9% of the posters here KNOW they should seek legal advice, why would you NOT seek it by following HG's advice? I have counted 5 times he told, or implied, that you should see a lawyer. Seems to me you did finally, when you were forced, hire an attorney.

"Why? Why would I see an attorney if I HAD NO CHANCE?" you ask.

"I am not privy to the terms and conditions in this agreement. You need someone with a law degree to review it for you." Is the answer (#2 again please).

"Luckily, I had enough sense to ignore HG's "advice" and get on with what I had to do. "

Luck, I'm sorry to say, had nothing to do with it. HG recognized what type of person you were when you apparently ignored his first post and e-mailed him directly. At which time he re-directed you to your post, and his initial reply (that could theoretically be the 6th time he told you to get a lawyer). Finally, he answered you pessimisticly because this was the only way to get you to quit whinning and hire an attorney. He got you to follow his advice in spite of yourself. Pretty smart, give credit where credit is due. The only actual advice he gave, aside from hiring an attorney, was to obtain the title to the property in J county. Which you did, I might add. The rest of his post was either questions or statements, the latter based on the info. you provided (#2 one more time).

So you see, I have read this thread most thoroughly.

And you DID follow HG's advice.
 
R

radeck

Guest
Busta, Busta, Busta! What will I ever do with you?

A. I live in Missouri; I am not from Missouri. Much like you live where you live, but you are not from there.
B. His pessimistic view asserted that I had no chance, not little chance. There is no half empty or half full assertion in the statement.
C. I didn’t sneak a thing into Counterpoint one. I quoted HG and added: You call that an accurate representation of the legal facts? Half empty or half full, HG said my glass was completely empty!
D. "we entered into a joint venture to purchase the property and that we each own 50% and that neither can sell without the other's permission” is what it said, but the attorney I saw said it had merit. If I had given the property description (included in the letter), bunches of people would have known precisely where I live. You didn’t fault me for using J County.
The actual document goes: Title: Statement of Partnership -Wording: We, the undersigned, have entered into a joint venture on October 31, 1998, to purchase the property located at: xxxx Any Street – Somewhere, Missouri. We agree that each has a fifty percent ownership. It is further agreed that neither may sell, nor otherwise transfer ownership to anyone without the permission of the other.
But I didn’t know that whole thing was needed. I was never asked to reproduce it. As for witnesses, his family members knew of this agreement and were in favor of it. They did not, however, sign it as witnesses, nor was it signed in front of a notary.
E. I provided complete care for this man, not some care. Are you one of those who feel handicapped people are somewhat less than human and can’t make decisions on their own? They can, you know! And keeping me employed 10 years kind of proves there was no fear of me on his part. And he’s gone due to circumstances beyond his control. He also asked me to move with him and continue to work for him, but I can’t do that at this time.
F. No, I didn’t want to retain an attorney. I trusted, foolishly perhaps, but I trusted. And while I did eventually consult an attorney, my trust was not misplaced. My employer has treated me as well as I treated him. Actually, I never even wanted the “threat” of legal action to taint our personal relationship. I wanted faith and trust to prevail and it did. Although in hindsight, is wasn't the thing to do.
G. I may feel that I am as smart as an attorney, but I do NOT feel I am as knowledgeable as an attorney in his field. I am as smart as many people, but I have no personal knowledge in the legal field and many other fields, for that matter. And quite frankly, you do have to consider what assets a person works with. The wealthy can not afford to NOT consult the professionals. Others can not avail themselves of this luxury unless they stand to lose more than the professional will cost. In other words, only if they HAVE to.
H. Never, not even once, did I ever email HG directly. At first, his only reply was: Hire an attorney. I posted again with something entirely sarcastic and only a little related. His reply was for me to not post again, but rather, reply to the same post, etc, etc, etc. But that’s not important here. You never read that I emailed HG, you merely assumed I emailed HG. Assuming facts not in evidence is not appropriate. Law & Order teaches you that!
I. Busta, your points are well taken. But please bear in mind that people who come here are not experts. We are attempting to consult experts and the experts should know that. And while I, myself, assumed that 99.9% of those who come here are attempting to gain knowledge before going to an attorney, I know I was attempting to obtain knowledge before going in. And given the advice I received after “Hire and attorney”, if I had really listened, I would have considered it a lost cause and given up. Maybe I should have saved the fee and done just that, because as I said, my employer decided to do the right thing.
J. I do NOT have a bone to pick with you, but I do have a bone to pick with HG and his attitude with me and others. I still feel his writings, after Hire an attorney, were not sound. Does he (and you) think WE are supposed to be totally immersed in legal knowledge before we come here? That sure doesn’t sound right.
K. My one and only reason for returning here was to inform HG of the actual outcome and to relate to him and others that they might be wise to take HG’s words (other than Hire an attorney) with a grain of salt.
My personal opinion is he shouldn’t be doing this, but if it’s all volunteer, you take what you can get, I suppose.
 

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