Overloaded WaterCraft/ Not Enough PFDs

[rtaa2005]

Lake Havasu City, AZ

Long Story Short, I was transporting some friends from one side of the channel to the other. I was cited for 8-16-140 cc Overloaded Watercraft and 5-331.A ars Not Enough PFDs / passengers. From what I understand the not enough PFDs is a Petty Offense so I must appear in court. Is this the same as a Traffic Ticket where if I plead Not Guilty I will get another court date in which the Officer will have to appear as well? The officers that gave the ticket did not board the boat and there were actually enough PFD's there was just confusion in dealing with the 18 people that were on the boat. One of the vests was a jet pilot which is not coast guard approved and when the officer asked everyone to grab a vest he grabbed the jet pilot instead of one of the others available.

My main concern is finding out what the sentencing for these violations are. Boating School? $100? $1000? If the fine is reasonable it is easier for me to just pay it given that it costs $100 in gas plus a few hundred in lost wages to drive to Havasu from Phoenix for court.

Just looking for some advice on the most efficient way to deal with this situation. Thanks

 

[InsaneJane]

Did the officer ask everyone to grab a vest or did the the officer ask for everyone to grab a coast guard approved vest?
I take it that he is claiming that you were one short?
Did he give you a chance to come up with one more?

 

[rtaa2005]

Did the officer ask everyone to grab a vest or did the the officer ask for everyone to grab a coast guard approved vest?
I take it that he is claiming that you were one short?
Did he give you a chance to come up with one more?

He asked everyone to grab a life vest.

Yes he is claiming we were short.

He did give us the chance to come up with another one. The boat did not belong to me so I did not know about the others in the front. I was standing in the back of the boat and did not properly manage what was going on in the front. One officer was dealing with me I provided the fire extinguisher etc. The other was checking to see if everyone was of age. There was no alcohol on the boat but one person that was 20 blew a .05 and the office informed us that he was taking her to jail and there would be a $1000 bond. All focus was lost on the ticket and I began to de-escalate the 8 guys that were drunk and upset with the officer for taking their friend to jail instead of just issuing a normal ticket.

tl;dr The chance was given to come up with more I was distracted and did not respond.

 

[xylene]

Not knowing where the life jackets were stowed is arguably the same as them not being on board, at least to the officers.

You will have to explain it it court.

A lawyer will not hurt.

What was the rated capacity of the boat? It would have to be a pretty big boat to be rated for 17 adults + operator.

The marine patrols around Havasu are know nationwide as being strict sticklers and I'm sure they could see your boat sticking out.

 

[rtaa2005]

Not knowing where the life jackets were stowed is arguably the same as them not being on board, at least to the officers.

You will have to explain it it court.

A lawyer will not hurt.

What was the rated capacity of the boat? It would have to be a pretty big boat to be rated for 17 adults + operator.

The marine patrols around Havasu are know nationwide as being strict sticklers and I'm sure they could see your boat sticking out.

It was a Pontoon Boat and is rated for 13 persons or 2580 pounds, most of the passengers were Small College Girls and we didn't have any other cargo I would say it was over loaded but not to the point of anyone being in danger we were in the channel and we were never more than 40 ft from shore.

Is anyone able to tell me what the consequences will be for these two charges?

 

[xylene]

It was a Pontoon Boat and is rated for 13 persons or 2580 pounds, most of the passengers were Small College Girls and we didn't have any other cargo I would say it was over loaded but not to the point of anyone being in danger we were in the channel and we were never more than 40 ft from shore.

Is anyone able to tell me what the consequences will be for these two charges?

To understand a hull rating, It's people up to a max weight, not weight of people. At 18 aboard You were ~38% overloaded. You were underway. You really don't want to try the "Small College Girl" defense.

I can't find any info on those statute numbers - are you sure you entered them correctly?

I am just being honest here, your best chance to fight these tickets is with the aid of a lawyer, because from here it looks like you have no defense to the overloading and your defense to the PDF cite looks like he said cop said.

Guess who wins that.

 

[rtaa2005]

To understand a hull rating, It's people up to a max weight, not weight of people. At 18 aboard You were ~38% overloaded. You were underway. You really don't want to try the "Small College Girl" defense.

I can't find any info on those statute numbers - are you sure you entered them correctly?

I am just being honest here, your best chance to fight these tickets is with the aid of a lawyer, because from here it looks like you have no defense to the overloading and your defense to the PDF cite looks like he said cop said.

Guess who wins that.

Honestly if I could I would just like to pay the fine depending on how much it is given the opportunity cost. The wording on the plate says "or" is there documentation showing that it is number of persons "not to exceed".

An example of the plate http://www.boat-ed.com/images/drawings/maximum_capacity_plate.jpg

I honestly could get a breakout of the weight per person being under 2500 pounds. I'm more concerned about the PFD charge I just would like to know what kind of punishment I'm looking at.

Format Document

 

[Zigner]

Honestly if I could I would just like to pay the fine depending on how much it is given the opportunity cost. The wording on the plate says "or" is there documentation showing that it is number of persons "not to exceed".

An example of the plate http://www.boat-ed.com/images/drawings/maximum_capacity_plate.jpg

The wording on the plate you showed as an example means that you can't have more than X people OR more than X weight. If either is true, then you have overloaded the boat.

If you had 20 people at 50 lbs each (1,000 lbs total), then you have exceeded your rating. If you had 10 people at 300 lbs each (3,000 lbs total) then you have exceeded your rating.

 

[rtaa2005]

Got it, but can anyone tell me what the maximum fines for these violations are, or at least point me in the direction that leads to an answer. Google has not been any help.

 

[callmeconfused]

He asked everyone to grab a life vest.

Yes he is claiming we were short.

He did give us the chance to come up with another one. The boat did not belong to me so I did not know about the others in the front. I was standing in the back of the boat and did not properly manage what was going on in the front.

If the boat was not yours, then you might argue that you were informed before operating the vessel that everything was legal and up to standard, and that you were operating the vessel in good faith? Also, you say that you were standing in the back of the boat, yet in your first post, you say that you were transporting some friends to the other side of the water? Which is it? When I hear that you were standing at the back of the boat, it tends to make me think that you were not the one actually at the steering wheel? If you were a passenger then you should not be held responsible for any safety defects for another persons boat. If you were a passenger on a bus, and it is stopped for lack of blinker lights, etc. then the passenger is not the one rightfully cited. Who was captain of the ship when it was stopped? Were you a mere passenger? Was it only you who was cited, or did everyone on the boat get a similar charge?

Another thing concerns me about this situation. What right did the officer have to confront and detain you and your friends for the purposes of inspecting the inside of the boat. What gave him the right to detain all of you and demand that you produce for him the lawful number of life jackets? I do not believe that you are required by law to wear your life jacket, only store a safe number of life jackets on the boat. However, boats, just like cars and houses, are protected by the 4th amendment to the US Const.. An officer cannot stop a car for the purposes of inspecting the inside of the vehicle to determine whether it is safe for a child to ride in it without having something which leads him to believe that there exists a possibility that it is not safe. There must be something visible which provides the officer with probable cause to conduct the inspection. I don't think a cop can simply come up to a bunch of kids, "detain them", then begin inspecting for things that the officer can cite or arrest them for, after the initial detention. There may be a violation to defeat this case on a technicality. I did take note that you mentioned that he stopped you for "overloaded watercraft". If he could see that there were to many people on a boat at one time, this would provide him with the right to stop you, however, was the situation one where the officer could not have known that the boat was actually overloaded until after making the initial inspection as to what type of vessel it was? Some boats allow more people to safely ride on them. How was he certain before the stop was made that your boat actually had too many people on it? The relevant question now becomes whether he actually knew before he stopped you that your boat had an illegal number of people on it? Or, was this a discovery that was made after he decided to stop the boat and check to see if there was a lawful amount of PFD's on the boat? Could the officer see from a far distance the amount of people on the boat? Did he know that your specific boat only allows a certain number of people on it? If he made the discovery after he stopped you that your boat was overloaded, then the case might be able to be thrown out... The difficult question is how to make this demonstration. Were some people sitting on the floor of the boat and not visible to the officer until he demanded that you stop your boat for the purposes of an inspection? What are the details surrounding the stop?

 

[Zigner]

If the boat was not yours, then you might argue that you were informed before operating the vessel that everything was legal and up to standard, and that you were operating the vessel in good faith? Also, you say that you were standing in the back of the boat, yet in your first post, you say that you were transporting some friends to the other side of the water? Which is it? When I hear that you were standing at the back of the boat, it tends to make me think that you were not the one actually at the steering wheel? If you were a passenger then you should not be held responsible for any safety defects for another persons boat. If you were a passenger on a bus, and it is stopped for lack of blinker lights, etc. then the passenger is not the one rightfully cited. Who was captain of the ship when it was stopped? Were you a mere passenger? Was it only you who was cited, or did everyone on the boat get a similar charge?

Another thing concerns me about this situation. What right did the officer have to confront and detain you and your friends for the purposes of inspecting the inside of the boat. What gave him the right to detain all of you and demand that you produce for him the lawful number of life jackets? I do not believe that you are required by law to wear your life jacket, only store a safe number of life jackets on the boat. However, boats, just like cars and houses, are protected by the 4th amendment to the US Const.. An officer cannot stop a car for the purposes of inspecting the inside of the vehicle to determine whether it is safe for a child to ride in it without having something which leads him to believe that there exists a possibility that it is not safe. There must be something visible which provides the officer with probable cause to conduct the inspection. I don't think a cop can simply come up to a bunch of kids, "detain them", then begin inspecting for things that the officer can cite or arrest them for, after the initial detention. There may be a violation to defeat this case on a technicality. I did take note that you mentioned that he stopped you for "overloaded watercraft". If he could see that there were to many people on a boat at one time, this would provide him with the right to stop you, however, was the situation one where the officer could not have known that the boat was actually overloaded until after making the initial inspection as to what type of vessel it was? Some boats allow more people to safely ride on them. How was he certain before the stop was made that your boat actually had too many people on it? The relevant question now becomes whether he actually knew before he stopped you that your boat had an illegal number of people on it? Or, was this a discovery that was made after he decided to stop the boat and check to see if there was a lawful amount of PFD's on the boat? Could the officer see from a far distance the amount of people on the boat? Did he know that your specific boat only allows a certain number of people on it? If he made the discovery after he stopped you that your boat was overloaded, then the case might be able to be thrown out... The difficult question is how to make this demonstration. Were some people sitting on the floor of the boat and not visible to the officer until he demanded that you stop your boat for the purposes of an inspection? What are the details surrounding the stop?

What a maroon.

If you don't know the law then don't post...get it?

 

[rtaa2005]

If the boat was not yours, then you might argue that you were informed before operating the vessel that everything was legal and up to standard, and that you were operating the vessel in good faith? Also, you say that you were standing in the back of the boat, yet in your first post, you say that you were transporting some friends to the other side of the water? Which is it? When I hear that you were standing at the back of the boat, it tends to make me think that you were not the one actually at the steering wheel? If you were a passenger then you should not be held responsible for any safety defects for another persons boat. If you were a passenger on a bus, and it is stopped for lack of blinker lights, etc. then the passenger is not the one rightfully cited. Who was captain of the ship when it was stopped? Were you a mere passenger? Was it only you who was cited, or did everyone on the boat get a similar charge?

Another thing concerns me about this situation. What right did the officer have to confront and detain you and your friends for the purposes of inspecting the inside of the boat. What gave him the right to detain all of you and demand that you produce for him the lawful number of life jackets? I do not believe that you are required by law to wear your life jacket, only store a safe number of life jackets on the boat. However, boats, just like cars and houses, are protected by the 4th amendment to the US Const.. An officer cannot stop a car for the purposes of inspecting the inside of the vehicle to determine whether it is safe for a child to ride in it without having something which leads him to believe that there exists a possibility that it is not safe. There must be something visible which provides the officer with probable cause to conduct the inspection. I don't think a cop can simply come up to a bunch of kids, "detain them", then begin inspecting for things that the officer can cite or arrest them for, after the initial detention. There may be a violation to defeat this case on a technicality. I did take note that you mentioned that he stopped you for "overloaded watercraft". If he could see that there were to many people on a boat at one time, this would provide him with the right to stop you, however, was the situation one where the officer could not have known that the boat was actually overloaded until after making the initial inspection as to what type of vessel it was? Some boats allow more people to safely ride on them. How was he certain before the stop was made that your boat actually had too many people on it? The relevant question now becomes whether he actually knew before he stopped you that your boat had an illegal number of people on it? Or, was this a discovery that was made after he decided to stop the boat and check to see if there was a lawful amount of PFD's on the boat? Could the officer see from a far distance the amount of people on the boat? Did he know that your specific boat only allows a certain number of people on it? If he made the discovery after he stopped you that your boat was overloaded, then the case might be able to be thrown out... The difficult question is how to make this demonstration. Were some people sitting on the floor of the boat and not visible to the officer until he demanded that you stop your boat for the purposes of an inspection? What are the details surrounding the stop?

They are legally allowed to stop any boat to ensure compliance with the coastguard regulations. It is a pontoon the helm was in the back of the boat. I was behind the wheel the officers saw me driving. I live 4 hours from Havasu and defending myself would involve a lot of he said she said with the officer and I'm assuming multiple court dates. As well as obtaining other witnesses. I just would like to know if anyone can tell me what the fines are for these violations.

 

[xylene]

I'm telling you, the best possible thing you can do is get a lawyer.

That is the only way you are possibly going to get out of this easily (without appearing)

Its an appearance ticket, so there is no "just pay" option.

Even if you end up having to go to court, a lawyer will still help.

PS- (excellent non-legal advice) Tell the boat owner and or whomever elses drunk butts you were driving around with a gaggle of "Small College Girls" to pony up a little frontage for the lawyer in return for your services as a sober pilot.

 

[buzzbee]

overloaded boat and not enough life jackets

My son just recieved the same two tickets this weekend on Apache Lake. I rented the pontoon boat and he was just driving for a minute when they stopped us. I cannot find any information on what the fines or options are either. I am concerned about the overloaded boat though because they checked both criminal and petty on that one. If you have already delt with yours can you tell me how it went?

 

[xylene]

You are also hijacking - arrr.

Please start your own thread.

I can tell you that as I said:

The best possible thing you can do is get a lawyer.

That is the only way you are possibly going to get out of this easily (without appearing)

It is an appearance ticket, so there is no "just pay" option.

Even if you end up having to go to court, a lawyer will still help.