Overpayment to lawyer

[KJ1]

What is the name of your state? I live in Va. Beach, VA

In 1998 my husband retained a lawyer to represent him in a case for SS disability. My husband was already rated 100% total & perm. disabled from the Veterans Administration for PTSD. When asked how much it would cost to be represented, bm husband was told by the lawyer that the most it would be would be $2,5000.00 due to ss "cap" of that amount.

When my husband was granted disability in 2005 we received notice that ss kept over $6,000.00 out of his back pay to make sure the lawyer was paid. The lawyer was paid the new "cap" of $4,000.00 (My husband had only been in front of a judge once in all that time. He only met with the lawyer 6-7 times in all that time. The lawyer retired, then went back to the law firm. When we met with him upon his return, he expressed surprise that my husbands case hadn't been settled yet. He also said it was unusual to only appear once in front of a judge in all that time. My husbands case did not receive due diligence.)

S.S. said the lawyer and my husband had 15 days to disagree with the $4,000.00 the lawyer was paid. After 15 days, if they didn't hear from either, they would consider the amount acceptable. That letter was written the end of June, 2005.

I called the lawyers office, found out they indeed received $4,000.00 When I asked the legal aid what my husband needed to do in order to receive the overage ss held out, the legal aid told me that he would receive the balance in a few months. She said ss keeping out 25% was normal, but the remainder would be rebated to my husband.

Then at the end of Nov., 2005 we received a copy of a motion that the lawyer wrote and submitted to the court requesting the remaining $2,000.00 of my husbands ss money. We did all we could to stop this. We saw the motion that the lawyer submitted, it did not show any "out of pocket" expenses that would warrant an exception to the $4,000.00 "cap". The lawyer had no "out of pocket" expenses. My husband requested his medical records from the VA hospital, he picked them up, highlighted the important information and hand delivered them to the lawyers office. We had a notorized copy of a letter releasing the lawyer and the law firm from representing my husband. We were told this was the only way my husband would have a say-so in the matter. We delivered the notorized copy to the court and to the local ss. office. The court still awarded the payment to the lawyer, saying that the judge would have had to dismiss the lawyer from the case. That my husband releasing the lawyer didn't mean a thing without the judge's approval.

What can we now do? The lawyer had until the middle of July 2005 to challange his payment, yet he didn't. SS stated he and my husband both had 15 days from the end of June, 2005 to contest the payment. Now 5 months later, the lawyer goes after the money and he receives it!

The lawyer has now been paid over $6,000.00 for a case he agreed to handle for $2,5000.00 His legal aid lied to me when she informed me my husband would get the remainder of the money. We were never informed that the lawyer felt he deserved more money.

How can he go after money 5 months after he was given a time frame of responding by the middle of July? He agreed to $2,5000.00 can he just ignore that and receive the new "cap" that s.s. sets?

What option do we now have? Social security considers themselves out of the case. This is so unfair...what can we do?????

Please help.

Thank you,
Kris

 

[BL]

I don't understand a court awarding the Lawyer the extra amount ?

What was the agreement you signed ?

 

[Some Random Guy]

Contact the Partner in Charge of the law firm (not your lawyer) and ask them what will be done about the overpayment. File a complaint from the state bar association regarding this misconduct.

Agreeing with BL: What was the agreement you signed ?

 

[Whyte Noise]

SSA regs state that the attorney fees are to be 25% of backpay or $5,300, whichever is less. This is the MAXIMUM that an attorney can charge you. I don't know where you got the figure of $4,000 being the cap, as the actual financial cap is $5,300.

Like BL said... what did your retainer agreement state? An attorney can charge LESS than what the SSA regs allow (and you said something about $2,500) but in no case can they charge MORE than 25% or $5,300. If your husband signed a retainer agreement for less than the max amount allowed then that is what is binding on the attorney no matter how many years later it is. SSA should also have a copy of this retainer agreement in your husband's file.

 

[KJ1]

I don't understand a court awarding the Lawyer the extra amount ?

What was the agreement you signed ?

Thank you for your answer. I was wrong in who made the judgement. The lawyer sent the motion to the U.S. District Court of Va., and the Assistant U.S. Attorney was the one that ok'ed payment to the attorney.

This was back in early 1998 that the attorney was retained, and as far as my husband and I can remember, he never signed any sort of agreement with the attorney.

 

[KJ1]

Contact the Partner in Charge of the law firm (not your lawyer) and ask them what will be done about the overpayment. File a complaint from the state bar association regarding this misconduct.

Agreeing with BL: What was the agreement you signed ?

Thank you for your reply. I have contacted the law firm and have requested a meeting with a partner.

I appreciate the idea of complaining to the state bar association, I really don't know where else to go have this taken care of.

I appreciate all the answers I have received. My husband is 100% disabled due to being a combat Marine in Viet Nam. As most of our vets from that war, he feels that nobody cares about him.

Neither of us remembers him signing any sort of agreement with the lawyer.

 

[BL]

Hopefully , any agreement will be on file there .

An attorney would have to have him sign some sorta agreement and/or forms .

 

[KJ1]

SSA regs state that the attorney fees are to be 25% of backpay or $5,300, whichever is less. This is the MAXIMUM that an attorney can charge you. I don't know where you got the figure of $4,000 being the cap, as the actual financial cap is $5,300.

Like BL said... what did your retainer agreement state? An attorney can charge LESS than what the SSA regs allow (and you said something about $2,500) but in no case can they charge MORE than 25% or $5,300. If your husband signed a retainer agreement for less than the max amount allowed then that is what is binding on the attorney no matter how many years later it is. SSA should also have a copy of this retainer agreement in your husband's file.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. In a letter from the SS dated June 26, 2005 they say they "have approved the fee agreement between you and your lawyer. Under the fee agreement, the lawyer cannot charge you more than $4,000.00 for his or her work. The amount of the fee does not include any out-of-pocket expenses (for example, costs to get copies of doctor's or hospitals' reports)."

"Because of the law, we usually withhold 25% of the total past-due benefits or the maximum payable under the fee agreement to pay an approved lawyer's fee. We withheld $6,054.75 from the past due benefits to pay the lawyer."


As my husband never agreed to the figure of $4,000.00 we ASSUMED (yes, I know what that word means) the cap had been set at $4,000.00

My husband accepted the fact that $4,000.00 had been withheld, but he never, never agreed to that amount with the lawyer, the lawyer never even mentioned that amount to us. My husband let ss pay the lawyer $4,000.00 because he just wanted this 7 year battle over with. For the lawyer to take another $2,000.00 is just way too much.

We went to the court and reviewed the motion set forth by our attorney. He did not list "any out-of-pocket" expenses. He just listed the time he said he spent on the case. (He listed $1,000.00 for "research"....I have no idea what "research" he did).

Again, neither of us think that he even signed any agreement with the lawyer. My husband fired the lawyer when he found out the lawyer went for the remainder of the withheld money.

What would the implications be if in fact my husband never did sign a retainer agreement?

Again, thank you so much for your help. It's so nice to see that people really do care.

Kris

 

[KJ1]

Another question....if I call the lawyers office to find out if they have a retainer agreement on file, do they have to give me an answer? I'm afraid that now that we have fired the lawyer they may not want to be of any service to us.

Thanks again!

 

[Whyte Noise]

Another question....if I call the lawyers office to find out if they have a retainer agreement on file, do they have to give me an answer? I'm afraid that now that we have fired the lawyer they may not want to be of any service to us.

Thanks again!

Yes, they do. You can request your entire file that the attorney has and they are required to send it to you.

According to the post above this one... it seems as if your husband signed some sort of fee agreement with the attorney as that letter mentions it specifically; "have approved the fee agreement between you and your lawyer. Under the fee agreement, the lawyer cannot charge you more than $4,000.00 for his or her work."

That means that the attorney has a fee agreement that he submitted to the SSA that has your husband's signature on it, and that says that the fee will be no more than $4,000.

I'd call SSA and tell them I want a copy of the fee agreement that was signed. Better yet, if you're near a local office, call and see if they have his file back yet and go down there and inspect the file. He has that right, and they can not deny him access to his file.

It's been 7 years, and he may have signed it and just not recall it. However, their own letter says that the attorney can't be paid more than $4,000 under the fee agreement. The rest of that money should be released to your husband.

 

[BL]

Under the fee agreement, the lawyer cannot charge you more than $4,000.00 for his or her work. The amount of the fee does not include any out-of-pocket expenses (for example, costs to get copies of doctor's or hospitals' reports)."

Apparently the Lawyer submitted a request to cover those " out-of-pocket " expenses ..

 

[KJ1]

Apparently the Lawyer submitted a request to cover those " out-of-pocket " expenses ..

Blonde, I would agree with you, however when my husband and I went to court and read the motion the lawyer submitted to the court for the extra money, the motion did not list any expenses...just the amount of hours he spent on the case.

It's interesting to note that in his motion, the lawyer stated he "expended a great deal of time and effort...." it's interesting because this lawyer retired for one and a half years, in all that time no other lawyer in the lawfirm had any contact with my husband about his case!

Thanks again for your help.

Kris

 

[KJ1]

Yes, they do. You can request your entire file that the attorney has and they are required to send it to you.

According to the post above this one... it seems as if your husband signed some sort of fee agreement with the attorney as that letter mentions it specifically; "have approved the fee agreement between you and your lawyer. Under the fee agreement, the lawyer cannot charge you more than $4,000.00 for his or her work."

That means that the attorney has a fee agreement that he submitted to the SSA that has your husband's signature on it, and that says that the fee will be no more than $4,000.

I'd call SSA and tell them I want a copy of the fee agreement that was signed. Better yet, if you're near a local office, call and see if they have his file back yet and go down there and inspect the file. He has that right, and they can not deny him access to his file.

It's been 7 years, and he may have signed it and just not recall it. However, their own letter says that the attorney can't be paid more than $4,000 under the fee agreement. The rest of that money should be released to your husband.

Thank you for your answer. I was surprised to find out that even though my husband submitted a notorized copy of releasing the lawyer from this case, the lawyer is still considered his lawyer until a judge dismisses him from the case.

I have left 3 messages with the lawyers paralegal....she has not returned a single call. In fact, when my husband was in her office writing a piece of paper that he was releasing the lawyer from the case, I asked the paralegal a question and she told me that because we released the lawyer, she couldn't answer any questions. You would think she would have the knowledge that my husband couldn't fire the lawyer without a judge's approval.

I appreciate your information about ssa having a copy of the fee agreement. I was planning on calling the clerk of the court to find if they would have the fee agreement in my husbands court records, it's good to know that our local ssa office should have that information. At least now I have two avenues to find that information.

About the "agreed" amount of $4,000.00 when my husband retained the lawyer he was told that $2,5000.00 was the most the case would be....if he did sign a retainment agreement, it would have that amount on it, not $4,000.

I appreciate being able to share what I know about the case, and having your feed back. It helps me to get a better handle on this situation.

I agree, the rest of the money should have been released to my husband, however it seems that I keep running into dead ends when I try to tell the SSA, or the district attorney that. They both say they are out of the case, and the DA tells me she can't give me any advice on how to get the money.

How frustrating and how unfair.

Kris

 

[Whyte Noise]

Any out of pocket expenses for medical records requests, etc. are the responsibility of the claimant and the SSA dosn't pay that. If there were any out of pocket expenses your husband would have gotten a bill with that amount outlined.

If I were you, I'd march me and my husband down to the local SSA office with the letter you quoted in here, in-hand and ask to speak to a supervisor. I'd demand to know why, after the attorney had been paid his maximum of $4,000, they had not released the rest to your husband. I'd demand to see his file (and they should have it back in the local office by now) and look in that file for the retainer agreement. He had to have signed something stating that $4,000 maximum amount. The SSA doesn't just pull a fee agreement out of the air and quote a figure in it and they had to have that fee agreement in order to send you that letter and know how much the fee was. They quoted it in the letter... they have a copy of it somewhere. Check the signature on that fee agreement. The attorney may have said $2,500 but it's what in that fee agreement that is submitted to the SSA for approval that matters.

Your husband is owed $2,054.75 of his benefits that the SSA withheld. They are not "out of it" and I'd be damn sure to let them know they aren't. This money should have been refunded to him a long time ago, after the attorney was paid. They have the fee agreement stating that the attorney was to be paid no more than $4,000, they approved that fee agreement, and they owe the money. They paid the attorney his maximum of $4,000 that THEY agreed to, and they need to give your husband the money he's still owed that they were withholding.

As for the attorney's claim that he "expended a great deal of time and effort", that's BS. His office staff is who would send out records requests. They are the ones that would type up hearing requests, and he just signs it. Most attorneys spend no more than 10 hours on a case, not counting court time. This is what my own SS attorney told me. I asked. He was going to get $5,300, I wanted to know what for (I'm nosey like that). He explained it all to me. He gets all the information and compiles it in a file, but all the information "gathering" is done by the staff and the claimant themselves. When you're denied, they file the appeal with the SSA. If you're denied again they file a consideration for hearing request with the SSA. After that, they sit around and wait for the hearing to be scheduled. If you have updated medical records that need to be added to the file (in cases where you have many months in between the hearing request and actual hearing and have received additional treatment or diagnosis) they may request those and send those to the SSA to add to your file. Most of their time, though, is spent waiting. My request for a hearing was filed in January of 2003 and my hearing wasn't until March 2004. Was he actively working on my case for those 15 months? Nope. When he got the notice of the hearing date, he called me to see if I had any additional medical records, I did... he asked me to send them to him and I did. He looked them over, they were added to my file. I only saw my attorney 2 times. Once he came to my home to meet me and go over things that were in my file, the 2nd time was the day of the trial.

You should also see this, that I found on SSA's own website and notice the part that I put in bold type:

http://www.ssa.gov/representation/overview.htm

"The Social Security Act and SSA regulations prohibit representatives from charging or collecting any fee for representational services that SSA has not authorized, or that is more than the maximum amount SSA authorized. Any representative found to have charged or collected an unauthorized fee may be suspended or disqualified from practice before SSA and will be barred from appearing before SSA until full restitution is made. The representative also is subject to fines and imprisonment."

The SSA only "authorized" a maximum amount of $4,000 for your husband's attorney. Their own letter states that fact: "Under the fee agreement, the lawyer cannot charge you more than $4,000.00 for his or her work.

I also see now where the $4,000 comes in at. If the fee agreement was signed before February 1, 2002 the maximum amount a representative could collect was $4,000. Apaprently the law changed on that date regarding the maximum and it increased to the $5,300 I stated. Since he hired this attorney in 1998 (and that's more than likely when he made the fee agreement) he'd fall under the old provision of 25% or $4,000 instead of 25% or $5,300. Since the 25% was more than $4,000 thats why the attorney only got the $4,000 to start with. Remember... it's 25% OR $4,000 whichever is less. $4,000 is less than the 25% ($6,054.75).... and that's what the attorney was paid.

Don't let this lie. SSA screwed up and violated their own policies as I just showed you from their website link posted above and what I quoted from that page. The hell they are "out of it". They're right smack dab in the middle of it.

 

[45Frank]

Whyte Noise thanks for that website.
I had a Lawyer I fired for not submitting all my records the second time after the first denial, I traveled for days in a cab and with friends to get these records he requested. When I called after the denial he never submitted more records then I did the first time. SS stated nothing new was added to your case and followed up with a letter. His secretary said he didn't think they were relevant, (we went to school together and she told me later that if I was approved there wouldn't be no retro so no payment) she has since left the firm. They were more then half my records from kidney dr's, cardiologist back and so on all after m yforst denial. My new attorney wrote him a letter releasing him and he responded with a letter aggreeing not to handle the case.
Well I don't know if I've been approved yet but got a call from SS wanting to know why he is asking for payment since he's not attorney of record, my new attorney said he may get something if I'm approved. He's now billing me at @$250.00 per hour and has demanded payment or will sue me. He never did anything other then to agree to take my case and sent in the 2nd request, nothing not one piece of additional record.
Sorry for going on thanks