paid time off dispute

[ShoppingPro]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Illinois

what does this phrase actually mean on an offer letter/contract from an employer:

"25 total days which can be used for vacation and sick days plus federal holidays"

There is no punctuation at all.

Does this mean 25 days, plus federal holidays or does it mean that the 25 days must be used for the federal holidays? No other written or verbal communication has occurred.

Thanks!

 

[cbg]

Grammatically, it means that the 25 days must be used for holidays.

What the intent of the employer was by this statement, only the employer can say.

 

[pattytx]

No idea, ask HR.

 

[ShoppingPro]

Well technically, it's grammatically incorrect, but I'm a writer not a lawyer.

Thanks for the input.

 

[pattytx]

cbg IS a writer. She's also an HR professional with a lot of experience.

 

[cbg]

I agree that it is grammatically incorrect. However, if you apply the rules of grammar to what is written, it comes out that the holidays come out of the 25 days.

It is fairly clear that you want it to read that you get 25 days vacation and sick time PLUS holidays. I'm sorry, but I can't make it read that way with any kind of grammatical accuracy.

As I said, if you want to know what the writer intended it to say, you'll have to ask him or her.

 

[ShoppingPro]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across rude. Just frustrated as a writer who tries to write without ambiguity to watch someone get screwed over because of it.

I also wonder if the meaning is interpreted differently in different areas of the country or in different industries. I just heard back from a friend in HR (not at this company) here in the midwest and she reads it like I do, 25 days plus federal holidays. In fact, based on my informal, unscientific survey this afternoon, I can't find anyone besides you and the author who reads it to be 25 inclusive. (The author is a lawyer from the east coast.) It's just not how PTO is usually described in our respective worlds.

Of course, that's neither here nor there for my friend. He needs to a have discussion with management, which involves calling them out for lying in their verbal offer. Fun times.

Thanks again.

 

[pattytx]

There is no geographical standard for something like this that I know of. I've lived in CA, TX, MO, MD and now PA. Unless it's in North Dakota, which you couldn't get me to with a 10-foot igloo.

If it turns out to be something other than how you have interpreted it, that doesn't necessary mean the company was lying; it means that whoever wrote it didn't write it clearly and that's ALL it means.

 

[cbg]

The meaning would vary depending on where the absent punctuation went in. Clearly your "informal survey" places it differently than I do.

One more time, ONLY the writer of the policy can say what was intended. I strongly recommend that you NOT take the position that anyone was deliberately lying. There is a very great difference between lying and writing imperfectly.

BTW, I am both an HR professional with 30 years experience, including experience writing PTO policies, and a published writer.

 

[ShoppingPro]

Patty, thanks for the geographical perspective. We've both only lived in the midwest so it was really more of a wishful-thinking question than anything. LOL Oh, I agree, no ND for me either, although it's felt pretty arctic here this winter anyway.

I left out a lot of the original details simply because I was curious about the particular phrase from a legal standpoint. Those details, however, are important when it comes to the context of entire the situation, especially regarding my comments about accusing someone of lying.

Friend worked with both partners of the new company at two previous companies. The standard PTO for both companies (and all of that industry) is 20+5+9 federal holidays. When the hiring partner made the verbal offer for this high level position, he said, "Time off is the same as XX, 25 days for sick and vacation." He did NOT say anything at all about federal holidays and my friend assumed that because that's the industry norm as well the historical norm with this person, that it was the same. He also read the ambiguous text through the filter of his previous history and this verbal conversation, not from a purely grammatical standpoint.

Because this is a fairly small industry in this city and a tiny company, right or wrong, my friend feels that it was handled dishonestly. And nothing will change that but a frank conversation between the partner and my friend. (There isn't even an HR person on staff.) Unfortunately that hasn't happened because of travel schedules, but hopefully it will soon. Fortunately, he's savvy enough to not go in and accuse anyone of lying.

Oh, and this entire thing is coming to light right now because friend and a coworker were talking about plans for Monday (MLK Day). Coworker was told when he was hired that the federal holidays came out of the 25 days, hence friend's belief that he didn't receive the whole truth. (They're peer level so friend doesn't believe he would have been given a better PTO plan.)

I truly do appreciate the experience and perspective you've offered, although I suspect I haven't been very good at communicating that. Despite my silly screen name, I also have corporate experience. I've worked for large corporations for 16 years and in upper management for the last 12, but never in HR. I've been fortunate to work with great HR professionals and well-written policies, so this isn't something I've encountered personally. Since HR writes our offer letters and contracts, hopefully I never will.