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Paying my friend's credit card bill

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Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
I think if debtors put half as much energy into working to repay their debts as some debtors work to avoid paying them (e.g., fraudulently transferring funds, hiding assets, quitting jobs), life would actually be much easier and better for them.
A lot depends though on he size of the debt and the reasonableness of the creditor.

Bankruptcy can be an option, too.
 


quincy

Senior Member
A lot depends though on he size of the debt and the reasonableness of the creditor.

Bankruptcy can be an option, too.
Bankruptcy can be considered but it generally should not be the first option considered, unless the debt is so large that it cannot be managed otherwise.
 

zddoodah

Active Member
Is there any way my judgment creditor will know this unless I or my friend tell it?
In the abstract world of all that is hypothetical, it is certainly possible.

For what purpose the bank asked my driver license:?
What did the person at the bank tell you when you asked this question?

I cannot explain in this forum why I helped my friend than paying that money to the judgment debtor.
Of course you can. What you meant to say is that you choose not to do so. Right?

if my judgment creditor gets all the credit card related transactions of my friend, then will it show somewhere that I paid his credit card bill?
We have no way of knowing what records exist relating to your payment of your friend's bills. Keep in mind that it's possible (even if unlikely) that your creditor will find this thread and tie it to you.

The creditor cannot go after your friend's financial info without hard evidence that you improperly transferred money to your friend. In other words, not just proof that you paid your friend's credit card bill, but ALSO proof that you did so as an improper transfer of money.
I disagree with the conjunctive manner in which this is phrased. If the creditor learned of what the OP has admitted in this thread, the creditor would need neither evidence nor "proof" that it was "an improper transfer of money" to pursue the matter further. At that point, the creditor would unquestionably have a sufficient basis to file a fraudulent transfer action.

Last, if my creditor ever gets the credit card records of my friend (from the bank that issued the credit card to my friend), then will those records show who paid my friend's credit card bills?
You're asking us to tell you what some unknown records, which we've never seen, will say. Really?
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
I disagree with the conjunctive manner in which this is phrased. If the creditor learned of what the OP has admitted in this thread, the creditor would need neither evidence nor "proof" that it was "an improper transfer of money" to pursue the matter further. At that point, the creditor would unquestionably have a sufficient basis to file a fraudulent transfer action.
So, you are saying that "learned" does not require some element of proof? Some evidence that the payment actually happened? I could claim that I learned all sorts of things, but I doubt a judge would entertain those things without some element of proof. After all, pretty much all of Trump's suits for election fraud got thrown out for no elements of proof.
 

quincy

Senior Member
So, you are saying that "learned" does not require some element of proof? Some evidence that the payment actually happened? I could claim that I learned all sorts of things, but I doubt a judge would entertain those things without some element of proof. After all, pretty much all of Trump's suits for election fraud got thrown out for no elements of proof.
I agree.

Plus, paying someone else’s credit card on its own is not proof of anything except there is apparently money to pay someone else’s credit card. It is certainly not proof of a fraudulent transfer.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
It is certainly not proof of a fraudulent transfer.
Once the transfer without adequate consideration (e.g. a gift) is proven then it's not hard to prove the fraudulent transfer under the fraudulent conveyance statutes of most states. For example, typically just showing that the debtor was insolvent at the time of the transfer (his/her debts exceeded his/her assets) is enough. That's not hard to do when a debtor is claiming poverty and that he/she lacks the assets to pay the creditor.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
We don’t know if the payments are a gift.

And we also don’t know that the debtor is insolvent or claiming poverty.

We know far less than what we know.
Correct, we don't know the details, so it's too early to say the creditor could make a successful fraudulent conveyance claim. But it is not as hard as some people imagine it to be. The term "fraudulent conveyance" conjures images of criminal activity in the minds of many, which is understandable since we most often hear of fraud in the criminal context. But fraudulent conveyance statutes are civil remedies, not crimes, and no criminal intent need be proven for a creditor to succeed in a fraudulent conveyance action.
 

zddoodah

Active Member
So, you are saying that "learned" does not require some element of proof? Some evidence that the payment actually happened?
I'm not saying anything beyond what I wrote, but how does one "learn of" something except by evidence?

Let's go back to what you wrote that I commented on: "The creditor cannot go after your friend's financial info without hard evidence that you improperly transferred money to your friend. In other words, not just proof that you paid your friend's credit card bill, but ALSO proof that you did so as an improper transfer of money."

First, you said that the "creditor cannot go after your friend's financial info without" the things you mentioned. That's wrong. Anyone "can[] go after" anything, and "go[ing] after" is different from prevailing.

Second, you referred to "hard evidence." What does that mean? Are you attempting to apply the mohs scale? What determines the degree of hardness of evidence?

Third, "proof" is nothing more than a quantum of evidence that is sufficient to persuade someone that something is or isn't true.

Fourth, in most jurisdictions, the factual standard for non-frivolous legal action is the existence of evidentiary support or a reasonable believe that evidentiary support will exist after an reasonable opportunity for further investigation or discovery. See, e.g., Fed. R. Civ. Proc., Rule 11(b)(3).

That's why I wrote that, "If the creditor learned of what the OP has admitted in this thread, the creditor would need neither evidence nor 'proof' that it was 'an improper transfer of money' to pursue the matter further." Stated differently, if the creditor becomes aware of what the OP has admitted in this thread, the creditor could, consistent with the standard mentioned above, pursue the matter further and seek discovery as to the purpose for which it was done to determine if it was or wasn't proper.
 

quincy

Senior Member
We now get back to the question originally asked by jamesvill, which is if paying someone else’s credit card in cash at the bank where the credit card was issued is likely to be discovered by the judgment-creditor. The consensus of most members is that these credit card cash payments are unlikely to be discovered by the judgment-creditor, absent the credit card holder or jamesvill disclosing these payments.

For a fraudulent transfer in Texas, there must be shown an actual intent to hinder, delay or defraud a creditor.
 

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