Paypal Purchase of Bicycle Frame

[gman99]

Paypal Purchase of Bicycle Frame(Solved)

Ohio.

Greetings,

I recently bought a bicycle frame for $1250 plus $65 shipping w/UPS insurance from a member of an online bicycle owners group for which we are both members. He had only purchased it in Feb. of this year. He said he lost his job, and needed to sell it. He had online photos of it completely assembled. He claimed it was as good as new. I agreed to purchase it via Paypal using a credit card a couple of weeks ago. The seller lives in PA.

Upon receiving it, the box looked undamaged from UPS. When I inspected the frame, it looked okay. When I put a wheel in the rear dropouts though, the tire was off-center to one side of the chain stay by 3.2mm. To those that do not know anything about bicycles, they are supposed to be straight, and the wheel sit centered. I contacted the seller, who claims the bike was straight when he had it, and when he sent it. He said "Appreciate the update, and sorry it was not perfect when it arrived. ". I have taken it to a local frame builder to be evaluated, and he thought he aligned the frame, but upon putting a different wheel in, it was still off center by the same 3.2mm. He is unable to repair it as it is beyond his expertise. I would need to take it to some more experienced. The repair could cost is yet undetermined. It could be as little as $100 or much more. I paid the first frame builder $40 already for his efforts.

My intention is to get a working, proper bicycle frame. I do not believe I should be paying for these repairs, but I will pay to get it proper if I have to. There are 3 possibilities of how this happened. 1. The frame was off to start with from the factory and went un-noticed. 2. The owner damaged it and got rid of it without disclosing it. 3. The frame was good before shipping, then damaged during travel. There was no signs of impact, but these are lightweight frames and are subject to being crushed while on their side and the box would show no damage.

Either way, I'm left holding the mis-aligned frame, for which I had no part in it becoming this way. I feel sick about it. I did not receive what was supposed to be a proper bicycle frame.

My choices are to:
1. Fix it at my expense. Get on with life. A hard life's lesson.
2.Have the seller make a UPS claim. The frame was shipped in it's original box and packaging as it came from the factory.
3.Dispute the purchase with PayPal Buyer Protection, good up to $200.
4.Sell it as is.

I'm looking for any advice or feedback. I would like some re-reimbursement to get the frame repaired. What are my odds of a UPS or Paypal claim?

-Garth

 

[justalayman]

1. The frame was off to start with from the factory and went un-noticed.

Obviously, if it came that way, it is "like new"(just kidding)

Several things you have said are in contrast to this statement you credited to the seller:

"I'm sorry the frame was not perfect when I received it"

that is an admission of knowledge of the defect yet you go on to consider shipping damage or that the seller was not aware of the defect.

Why?

 

[gman99]

1. The frame was off to start with from the factory and went un-noticed.

Obviously, if it came that way, it is "like new"(just kidding)

Several things you have said are in contrast to this statement you credited to the seller:



that is an admission of knowledge of the defect yet you go on to consider shipping damage or that the seller was not aware of the defect.

Why?

I can't know for sure if he knew of the defect can I? He didn't say he how the defect came to be, just he was sorry it wasn't perfect. Since it wasn't perfect though, it had to get that way somehow. My gut tells me he knew, but I have no way to prove it. There's just no way someone could overlook the wheel tracking to the side.

Are you suggesting I should ask him for a refund or repair cost? Without you even answering, that seems to be what I need to do.

Frankly, standing up for myself is difficult at times, that's why. I don't want to believe someone would intentionally deceive me. It is quite possible he did.

Thank you for the reply, Garth

 

[Kiawah]

Could you return it to the seller, you pay the shipping back.

Cut your losses at having paid 2 shipments.

 

[gman99]

I sent him an email today asking for either a refund for which I would send the frame back, at his expense, or pay for the repair costs. If we split the return costs, I'd settle for that too.

I went back and red all his emails again. He claims the frame was perfect for him in one, yet when I told him of the problem he said "Appreciate the update, and sorry it was not perfect when it arrived." My first quote I wrote I see doesn't make sense as I wrote it, but this is cut and pasted from his reply.

A frame doesn't get out of alignment like this just by sitting still on its own. Somewhere along the line something happened for which I'm holding the bag, so to speak.

I'll correct the first one.

 

[gman99]

The owner replied today. Here is his pasted message"

"I can assure you that the frame was in like-new condition as described when it was sent to you, and certainly met my expectations when it was assembled and ridden. I did not take any measurements as there were no apparent problems that affected the handling or wheel placement. Everything was exactly as I described it. Whether an eighth-inch side-to-side difference was present or not did not register on my radar, and did not in any way affect the handling of the bike. I have no idea what is common as far as precision on a production frame, all I can say is that there were no issues that would warrant a trip to a frame builder. Had there been, I would have contacted Rivendell at the time. Earlier you said that although you had taken some measurements and noticed some differences, it was "water under the bridge" and "not your problem". Since that time you also mentioned you had made modifications to the frame (filing and rear alignment). Obviously I have no way to assess how these changes were done, or to what extent they affected the frame itself once it was in your possession.

By your own admission, the packaging was not damaged in transit. UPS would likely assume no responsibility for the condition of the frame as it was delivered with "no problems" (your words) and you made subsequent changes to the frame. If there had been noticeable damage to the box, and you had photographed the resulting damage to the frame and provided an estimate of repairs, that may have allowed me to file a claim. The fact that you had already made changes to the frame - and documented that in an Email - makes it unlikely that responsibility would be accepted by UPS, and puts me at risk of fraud were I to file a claim.

I am not a custom builder or retail shop, and have never offered an expressed warranty for a refund or repair, and cannot offer that to you now. I sold you a nearly new frame at a significant savings over the cost of a new frame, and took a loss myself. That is exactly what I delivered, and what you accepted. I have to agree with Rivendell when they suggested simply riding it as is. I do not believe that makes them or me irresponsible. "


It's not what I received however. The frame maker and the original owner claim everything was perfect. BS. These guys keep saying I bought the frame a considerable savings from new, so I should be happy..... with whatever the condition it is in. That is such BS. What I paid is what I paid.... and I was told it was in perfect working order. When you buy a used frame you can expect paint lost, scratches, etc., but not mis-alignment like this These guys(the frame builder and original owner) are like con artists who sell you something defective and tell you you should "be happy... you got a great deal on it ! " . They both said the SAME thing... even though they are not apparently affiliated with each other, but they may have spoken.

I'll start a paypal claim today and hope to get at least $200 to cover the repair cost. If that doesn't pan out, there is always small claims court. There is aprt of me that just wants to get on with the repair of the bike and move on, yet another that's believes I was mislead and wants some of money back to cover the repairs.... at least some of it.

 

[gman99]

Case Opened, Then Closed .

I started a Paypal claim today. I asked for $150 to be refunded.

Within hours he accepted, Case closed. I was very surprised!

I feel relieved this is over, now I can just get on with fixing the frame and riding it

I'm thankful to have a forum where we can share our situations and get some feedback and advice.

-Garth

 

[justalayman]

glad to hear you came to an equitable solution.

happy pedaling.