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Perjurious statements allowed by Attorney

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ws4thmann

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? COLORADO
What happens to an attorney who allows his client to make up a story concerning a statement made by a third party on a Protection order? On 8-14-17 a protection order was granted against a friend. On 8-28-17 the order was made permanent. On 8-29-17 it was discovered that not only had this third party not made the statement but that she did not know she had been listed on the order. Her attorney had called the third party for the third time on 8-25-17 (the third party provided screen shots of her call log proving the calls from the attorney) trying to get her to change her story and was told to quit calling and harassing her. The attorney knew 3 days prior to the motion becoming permanent that his client had made the story up and failed to disclose this. This third party statement was key in the granting of the order.
 


latigo

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? COLORADO
What happens to an attorney who allows his client to make up a story concerning a statement made by a third party on a Protection order? On 8-14-17 a protection order was granted against a friend. On 8-28-17 the order was made permanent. On 8-29-17 it was discovered that not only had this third party not made the statement but that she did not know she had been listed on the order. Her attorney had called the third party for the third time on 8-25-17 (the third party provided screen shots of her call log proving the calls from the attorney) trying to get her to change her story and was told to quit calling and harassing her. The attorney knew 3 days prior to the motion becoming permanent that his client had made the story up and failed to disclose this. This third party statement was key in the granting of the order.
How do we know that your story is not made up? It too is a "third party statement" based entirely on hearsay!

If the "friend" has a question, let the friend inquire.
 

Mass_Shyster

Senior Member
See Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct
Rule 3.3. Candor Toward the Tribunal

(a) A lawyer shall not knowingly:

(3) offer evidence that the lawyer knows to be false. If a lawyer, the lawyer’s client, or witness called by the lawyer has offered material evidence and the lawyer comes to know of its falsity, the lawyer shall take reasonable remedial measures, including, if necessary, disclosure to the tribunal. A lawyer may refuse to offer evidence, other than the testimony of a defendant in a criminal matter, that the lawyer reasonably believes is false.
The issue here is knowledge. Just because the lawyer could not get the third party to confirm the statement does not mean the statement was not made.
 

ws4thmann

Junior Member
If the "friend" has a question, let the friend inquire.

How do we know that your story is not made up? It too is a "third party statement" based entirely on hearsay!

If the "friend" has a question, let the friend inquire.
Just trying to help a friend who is overwhelmed by the lies presented in this order. I understand the "hearsay", but if this is true, what consequences could the attorney/client face?
 

ws4thmann

Junior Member
See Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct


The issue here is knowledge. Just because the lawyer could not get the third party to confirm the statement does not mean the statement was not made.
SteveF, Thanks for your reply. My friend is overwhelmed by the lies and his attorney is passing this off as something that happens all the time and is no big deal. Just trying to get him some answers.
 

latigo

Senior Member
SteveF, Thanks for your reply. My friend is overwhelmed by the lies and his attorney is passing this off as something that happens all the time and is no big deal. Just trying to get him some answers.
Have you read the Protection Order? Were you present in court on 8-14-17 to hear the evidence and testimony submitted in support of the petition/motion for a Protective Order? Have you read the petition/motion for a Protective Order?

If you weren't present to hear the testimony and evidence then on what basis do you claim that the "statement" was "key in granting the order"? Are you contending that it was the sole evidence influencing the granting of the order? That without it there would be no Protective Order?

Are you saying that this "third party" made no statement whatsoever concerning a Protection Order; that it was concocted by the attorney's client? If so, then explain what story the attorney was trying to get this "third party" to change and change it to what story? And why would the attorney be attempting to suborn supporting evidence 11 days after the interim Order was signed?

Her attorney (the bad guy I assume) had called the third party for the third time on 8-25-17. . . . trying to get her to change her story . .
And why is it that all of this - apparently unknown prior to the hearing date - suddenly crops up within 24 hours of the order being made permanent? (Someone was asleep at the switch?)

If this "story" was indeed concocted by the proponent of the Order then obviously it somehow entered the court record and before the issuance of the interim Order. Whether issued ex parte or after an evidentiary hearing is not known to us, but via an affidavit or testimony its so-called damaging aspects had to be known to your friend's attorney!

So why wasn't some action taken to counter act the damage?! Subpoena the third party? Object to the evidence as inadmissible hearsay?

If friend is so overwhelmed by it all then why hasn't he moved to have the order vacated as being induced by intrinsic fraud. *

Regarding the substantive issue raised there is no question but what an attorney has a degree of responsibility to verify the validity of a client's claim. The extent of the corroboration required will vary from case to case. In some instances the lawyer has been excused from a pre-filing investigation when he has been purposely misled by the client. Other courts have not been that lenient and impose a continuing obligation of counsel to ensure that the allegations are factually supported and not baseless.

You ask what can "happen to an attorney" that neglects to verify the validity of his client's claim or pursues a claim knowing that it is groundless or upon a reasonable investigation could learn that it is groundless? First there is the crime of barratry. Secondly the court can impose Rule 11 sanctions. The state bar can take appropriate action. But first fault must be established.
________________________________


[*] Intrinsic fraud is defined as “fraud which misleads a court in determining issues and induces the court to find for the party perpetrating the fraud. The classic case of intrinsic fraud is perjured testimony or presenting forged documents at trial. Allegations that a party failed to disclose documents also generally amount to intrinsic, rather than extrinsic, fraud.”
 

quincy

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? COLORADO
What happens to an attorney who allows his client to make up a story concerning a statement made by a third party on a Protection order? ...
The Office of Attorney Regulation Counsel in Colorado investigates complaints and prosecutes attorneys who violate the Rules of Professional Conduct. Disciplinary actions include private admonitions, public censures, license suspensions, disbarment.

Stevef provided you with Rule 3.3 of the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct. Here is a link to the Colorado Rules where you can scroll down to click on Rule 8.4, attorney misconduct: http://www.cobar.org/For-Members/Opinions-Rules-Statutes/Rules-of-Professional-Conduct/

All facts need to be known to determine if there was any misconduct. Friends, no matter how well meaning, do not have access to all of the facts necessary.
 
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ws4thmann

Junior Member
SteveF, Thanks for your reply. My friend is overwhelmed by the lies and his attorney is passing this off as something that happens all the time and is no big deal. Just trying to get him some answers.
latigo, thanks for the reply,
Yes, I have a copy of the order. The only testimony offered on 8-14-17 was that of the wife. The statement "key in granting the order" was made by my friends attorney while explaining what had happened on 8-28-17 after the motion for permanent protection was granted.

This third party was contacted by the wife's attorney for the first time on 8-25-17, three days before the order was made permanent. He made three calls to the third party on that date. During the first two calls the third party told the attorney that the wife had called and texted her trying to get her to go along with the concocted story and that it was not true. The third time the attorney called the third party, She replied, "Stop calling and harrassing me". The third party has also provided screen shots of her phone records showing three calls from the attorney and text messages from the wife trying to concoct this fabricated story. She has received no further calls.

My friends attorney advised him to have no contact with anyone listed on the order. He was told by his attorney it was ok to contact this third party after the order was made permanent on 8-28-17. Yes, I feel someone was asleep at the switch! Shouldn't his attorney have called this third party? She was the only "third party" listed on the order.

My friend and I brought this to the attention of his legal team on 8-29-17. This paralegal advised my friend, "This is no big deal. It happens all the time". She also said that since his attorney and my friend had already signed off on the order, nothing could be done. I can't believe that. This order, if left as is, will follow him for a long time. We have not heard from his attorney at this point.

My friend doesn't have anything on his record, not even a traffic violation. The wife has never accused him of domestic abuse until this point. She has never complained to anyone about this. Her grandparents, father, brother and stepmother have all sided with him.

Seems to me neither attorney has done a very good job. Question, are you required to notify someone you list when filing an order? The third party had no idea she was listed as a witness until her attorney called her. Also, her grandparents had no idea their address was listed as someplace he was not allowed to visit.

I guess my question should be, what should my friend do at this point? My thoughts are he should seek a new lawyer, this one isn't cutting it!
 
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quincy

Senior Member
latigo, thanks for the reply,
Yes, I have a copy of the order. The only testimony offered on 8-14-17 was that of the wife. The statement "key in granting the order" was made by my friends attorney while explaining what had happened on 8-28-17 after the motion for permanent protection was granted.

This third party was contacted by the wife's attorney for the first time on 8-25-17, three days before the order was made permanent. He made three calls to the third party on that date. During the first two calls the third party told the attorney that the wife had called her trying to get her to go along with the concocted story and that it was not true. The third time the attorney called the third party, She replied, "Stop calling and harrassing me". The third party has also provided screen shots of her phone records showing three calls from the attorney and text messages from the wife trying to concoct this fabricated story. She has received no further calls.

My friends attorney advised him to have no contact with anyone listed on the order. He was told by his attorney it was ok to contact this third party after the order was made permanent on 8-28-17. Yes, I feel someone was asleep at the switch! Shouldn't his attorney have called this third party? She was the only "third party" listed on the order.

My friend and I brought this to the attention of his legal team on 8-29-17. This paralegal advised my friend, "This is no big deal. It happens all the time". She also said that since his attorney and my friend had already signed off on the order, nothing could be done. I can't believe that. This order, if left as is, will follow him for a long time. We have not heard from his attorney at this point.

My friend doesn't have anything on his record, not even a traffic violation. The wife has never accused him of domestic abuse until this point. She has never complained to anyone about this. Her grandparents, father, brother and stepmother have all sided with him.

I guess my question should be, what should my friend do at this point? My thoughts are he should seek a new lawyer, this one isn't cutting it!
Finding a new lawyer is an option your friend can consider.
 

latigo

Senior Member
latigo, thanks for the reply,

Yes, I have a copy of the order. The only testimony offered on 8-14-17 was that of the wife. The statement "key in granting the order" was made by my friends attorney while explaining what had happened on 8-28-17 after the motion for permanent protection was granted. . . .
Well isn't that interesting, But make up you mind would you please!

From the beginning you've gone to some length in persuading us to believe that the lawyer for your "friend's" wife feloniously and knowingly caused perjurious evidence to enter the court record in support of his client's request for the issuance of a protection order. That the evidence supposedly consisted of a "key damaging, but false statement made by a third party".

Now we learn that the only evidence offered in the evidentiary hearing in support of the request for the order was testimony from your "friend's" wife. And the only reference to "a statement made by a third party" came not from the wife's lawyer, but from your "friend's" lawyer and only after the protection order had been made permanent.

It doesn't require a mental giant to deduce that no such statement by a third party could have influenced the court in issuing its order. Nor to be aware that in order to enjoy any success at prevarication requires a good memory.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Very few attorneys are going to risk their hard-earned law licenses by violating the rules that govern their profession. Most attorneys are not idiots.
 

ws4thmann

Junior Member
Well isn't that interesting, But make up you mind would you please!

From the beginning you've gone to some length in persuading us to believe that the lawyer for your "friend's" wife feloniously and knowingly caused perjurious evidence to enter the court record in support of his client's request for the issuance of a protection order. That the evidence supposedly consisted of a "key damaging, but false statement made by a third party".

Now we learn that the only evidence offered in the evidentiary hearing in support of the request for the order was testimony from your "friend's" wife. And the only reference to "a statement made by a third party" came not from the wife's lawyer, but from your "friend's" lawyer and only after the protection order had been made permanent.

It doesn't require a mental giant to deduce that no such statement by a third party could have influenced the court in issuing its order. Nor to be aware that in order to enjoy any success at prevarication requires a good memory.

I know I probably went into too much detail but I tried to keep it brief. When the order was filed, the court only heard evidence from the wife and her attorney. The wife listed a statement from this third party on line 4, sec b of the order pertaining to the "most serious incident that causes her to ask for a civil protection order". Her lawyer had not yet contacted the third party and did not yet know she had never made any such statement at the time of filing the order. Her attorney found out about this false statement 3 days prior to the motion to make permanent the order, 11 days after filing the order and never brought this up to his attorney or the court. We found out about this one day after the motion was made permanent when his attorney allowed him to contact the third party, who is a very good friend of his.

Super short version..... 8/14/17 Motion for civil protection order is granted. 8/25/17 her attorney contacts the third party to verify the statement. Her attorney finds out there is a problem with the statement made by the wife concerning what the third party did or did not say. 8/28/17 We all arrive in court and her attorney says nothing about the problem of credibility concerning the third party. Motion to make permanent is granted with what we know now to be a false statement. Incedently, my friend has instructed his attorney to share all aspects of his case with me.

Thanks for your input!
 
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quincy

Senior Member
I know I probably went into too much detail but I tried to keep it brief. When the order was filed, the court only heard evidence from the wife and her attorney. The wife listed a statement from this third party on line 4, sec b of the order pertaining to the "most serious incident that causes her to ask for a civil protection order". Her lawyer had not yet contacted the third party and did not yet know she had never made any such statement at the time of filing the order. Her attorney found out about this false statement 3 days prior to the motion to make permanent the order, 11 days after filing the order and never brought this up to his attorney or the court. We found out about this one day after the motion was made permanent when his attorney allowed him to contact the third party, who is a very good friend of his.

Super short version..... 8/14/17 Motion for civil protection order is granted. 8/25/17 her attorney contacts the third party to verify the statement. Her attorney finds out there is a problem with the statement made by the wife concerning what the third party did or did not say. 8/28/17 We all arrive in court and her attorney says nothing about the problem of credibility concerning the third party. Motion to make permanent is granted with what we know now to be a false statement. Incedently, my friend has instructed his attorney to share all aspects of his case with me. ...
This really makes no sense.

Your friend and his attorney would have known the reasons given by the wife for seeking the order of protection. Your friend and his attorney would have known before the hearing about the "serious" incident listed by the wife and the other incidents listed in support of the order.

If the serious incident or any of the other incidents did not happen as stated by the wife, your friend had the opportunity to refute these. The third party could have been called to testify.

It is of course possible that there was a failure on the part of BOTH attorneys ... but I think it more likely that you have not been informed fully as to what went on in the hearing.

I recommend you have your friend ask his attorney to explain to him what happened and why, and to ask his attorney what if anything he can now do to vacate the order.
 

ws4thmann

Junior Member
This really makes no sense.

Your friend and his attorney would have known the reasons given by the wife for seeking the order of protection. Your friend and his attorney would have known before the hearing about the "serious" incident listed by the wife and the other incidents listed in support of the order.

If the serious incident or any of the other incidents did not happen as stated by the wife, your friend had the opportunity to refute these. The third party could have been called to testify.

It is of course possible that there was a failure on the part of BOTH attorneys ... but I think it more likely that you have not been informed fully as to what went on in the hearing.

I recommend you have your friend ask his attorney to explain to him what happened and why, and to ask his attorney what if anything he can now do to vacate the order.
I agree, this makes no sense! I was at the hearing. This all started when I noticed at the hearing that her lawyer was acting strange. He was very nervous and sweating profusely. Why would a lawyer risk his license over this? Why did my friends attorney never contact the third party? The third party, when contacted by my friend the day after the motion was made permanent, offered to fly to denver and testify in court that she never made the statement filed in the order by the wife. His attorney poo-pooed this saying "this happens all the time and is no big deal". Makes me wonder what his lawyer is hiding?

Thank you to all who have offered advise. I know I got a little wordy which confused some issues. I have no legal background but good deal of common sense. I can now see a pretty clear path for my friend to vacate the order. Both attorneys will be called to task for what is at the very least, gross negligence.

Thanks again, I'll post the outcome of this case when decided.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I agree, this makes no sense! I was at the hearing. This all started when I noticed at the hearing that her lawyer was acting strange. He was very nervous and sweating profusely. Why would a lawyer risk his license over this? Why did my friends attorney never contact the third party? The third party, when contacted by my friend the day after the motion was made permanent, offered to fly to denver and testify in court that she never made the statement filed in the order by the wife. His attorney poo-pooed this saying "this happens all the time and is no big deal". Makes me wonder what his lawyer is hiding?

Thank you to all who have offered advise. I know I got a little wordy which confused some issues. I have no legal background but good deal of common sense. I can now see a pretty clear path for my friend to vacate the order. Both attorneys will be called to task for what is at the very least, gross negligence.

Thanks again, I'll post the outcome of this case when decided.
I would be careful about saying anything about the attorneys without knowing ALL of the facts.

For some examples: It is possible that the judge issued the permanent order after observing how the parties interacted with each other in court and the order had little to do with the accusations. It is possible the judge took the wife's statements with a grain of salt but felt the parties needed to be separated by the protective order to prevent the flow of future accusations (be they true or false). It is possible the attorneys knew the issuance of order was a foregone conclusion based on the judge's issuance of them whenever there was doubt of the veracity of the accusations.

There are all sorts of possibilities that can go to the mindset of the judge, in other words. Whether fair or not, the protective order stands to keep the parties apart and safe.

Your friend can speak to his attorney. He can seek out advice from another attorney. But it is unwise for your friend or you to disparage the attorneys without knowing why things played out as they did. Again, it is not common for attorneys to violate Rules or laws. They can pay a stiff price for doing so. And, even though there are attorneys who act badly, they tend to be the exception.

Good luck to your friend in working toward getting the order vacated.
 
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