Permanent Custody

[HelpMyMom84]

What is the name of your state? Ohio

I live in Hamilton County, OH. We have had placement of my nieces (my husband’s brothers girls) for almost 18 months while they have been in county custody. They were first put on a safety plan in July 2016 and moved to our house in December 2016. They made zero progress on their case and the only part of their plan that they followed was regular visitation with the kids in a supervised facility for two hours a week. They never were able to increase their time or move to less restrictive supervision because they couldn’t handle the kids. Skipped every drug test and had a new baby that tested positive in March 2018. Yesterday was the PC trial – mom and dad didn’t show. Their lawyers also withdrew from the case since neither of them had contact with their clients since January.

The magistrate proceeded – surprisingly since he is notorious for giving bios more chances than most others, at least in my foster care network. He heard about an hour of testimony – obviously nothing was given from the other side since no one was there. He did not give a ruling but said he would rule by June 1st. He indicated that he would likely rule much sooner as both sets of bio grandparents started kicking up a fit at the end. I believe PC will be granted, as he said “not to tip my hand or anything, but I have a mountain of compelling evidence here with nothing and no one to refute it”.

Mom’s dad sent me a message yesterday saying that mom and dad thought that court was today and that it sounds like that is grounds for a retrial.

That can’t happen, right? They would have to actually appeal since the case is closed and we will likely have a verdict by the end of the week, according to the county attorney and GAL. Can bios even appeal if they were not at court? I know for a fact that dad was served, as he was given the paperwork in court back in February. However mom was not at that hearing, and I am not sure how the county proceeded with attempting to serve her since she is homeless and jobless.

Just want to know what kind of outcomes we can expect. Any further details needed, please let me know.

Thanks!

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state? Ohio

I live in Hamilton County, OH. We have had placement of my nieces (my husband’s brothers girls) for almost 18 months while they have been in county custody. They were first put on a safety plan in July 2016 and moved to our house in December 2016. They made zero progress on their case and the only part of their plan that they followed was regular visitation with the kids in a supervised facility for two hours a week. They never were able to increase their time or move to less restrictive supervision because they couldn’t handle the kids. Skipped every drug test and had a new baby that tested positive in March 2018. Yesterday was the PC trial – mom and dad didn’t show. Their lawyers also withdrew from the case since neither of them had contact with their clients since January.

The magistrate proceeded – surprisingly since he is notorious for giving bios more chances than most others, at least in my foster care network. He heard about an hour of testimony – obviously nothing was given from the other side since no one was there. He did not give a ruling but said he would rule by June 1st. He indicated that he would likely rule much sooner as both sets of bio grandparents started kicking up a fit at the end. I believe PC will be granted, as he said “not to tip my hand or anything, but I have a mountain of compelling evidence here with nothing and no one to refute it”.

Mom’s dad sent me a message yesterday saying that mom and dad thought that court was today and that it sounds like that is grounds for a retrial.

That can’t happen, right? They would have to actually appeal since the case is closed and we will likely have a verdict by the end of the week, according to the county attorney and GAL. Can bios even appeal if they were not at court? I know for a fact that dad was served, as he was given the paperwork in court back in February. However mom was not at that hearing, and I am not sure how the county proceeded with attempting to serve her since she is homeless and jobless.

Just want to know what kind of outcomes we can expect. Any further details needed, please let me know.

Thanks!

The court allowed them to withdraw the day of the permanent custody trial? Well that won't work. See in Re RK by the Ohio Supreme Court. This is a guaranteed retrial. It may take a year for the appeal to go through but yeah... THIS is a guaranteed retrial. Oh and during the time it is on appeal mom and dad get to work the caseplan. And if it is past the two year mark, the court could be out of jurisdiction and have to dismiss, refile and start the case all over again. Oh but wait, it was a magistrate so there will be an objection first in which the JUDGE can order a new trial. And then it will go to trial and mom and dad will have counsel and if it all goes through, they can STILL appeal. So this can last another two or three years.

 

[Zigner]

Just for reference: https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/0/2018/2018-Ohio-23.pdf

 

[HelpMyMom84]

Just for reference: https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/0/2018/2018-Ohio-23.pdf

Thank you - a question, since I am obviously not an attorney. The case law that you put forward seems like it states that a failure to appear by the parent cannot be considered a waiver of counsel, in this case because the parent did not appear for this single hearing. However, there has been talk for at least the last three dates of withdraw in our case due to the fact that the parents refuse to communicate with the lawyers at all. They discussed withdrawing the last time because they had no idea how their clients wanted them to proceed.

You are likely correct in what you are stating (god help me) but how should this have taken place with the repeated non-involvement of the parents?

 

[Zigner]

I didn't state it - I merely posted a link. The one who stated it in this thread is an experienced family law attorney in the state of Ohio. The facts that you have presented align so closely to the facts in RK that it's scary.

 

[Ohiogal]

Thank you - a question, since I am obviously not an attorney. The case law that you put forward seems like it states that a failure to appear by the parent cannot be considered a waiver of counsel, in this case because the parent did not appear for this single hearing. However, there has been talk for at least the last three dates of withdraw in our case due to the fact that the parents refuse to communicate with the lawyers at all. They discussed withdrawing the last time because they had no idea how their clients wanted them to proceed.

You are likely correct in what you are stating (god help me) but how should this have taken place with the repeated non-involvement of the parents?

Does not matter. Waivers of counsel must be found to be knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently given. You can't find that mom and dad waived the right to counsel and it was knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently a waiver without having proof that the parents KNEW that not appearing for this hearing would result in withdrawal. Up until this date they knew they had counsel. Read the entire case. Mom and dad have a winning appeal. This is going to be a long process.

What should have happened is that the attorneys should have been DENIED the permission to withdraw and represented their clients throughout the hearing. Then it would NOT be guaranteed. They could still object based upon a mistake of law. And then appeal. But right now, the mistake of law is the court allowed the PC to proceed with them unrepresented. This is an easy win for any attorney with appellate experience. All mom and dad have to do is say in writing they object and they want counsel and this becomes unwinnable for Hamilton county.

 

[HelpMyMom84]

Does not matter. Waivers of counsel must be found to be knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently given. You can't find that mom and dad waived the right to counsel and it was knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently a waiver without having proof that the parents KNEW that not appearing for this hearing would result in withdrawal. Up until this date they knew they had counsel. Read the entire case. Mom and dad have a winning appeal. This is going to be a long process.

What should have happened is that the attorneys should have been DENIED the permission to withdraw and represented their clients throughout the hearing. Then it would NOT be guaranteed. They could still object based upon a mistake of law. And then appeal. But right now, the mistake of law is the court allowed the PC to proceed with them unrepresented. This is an easy win for any attorney with appellate experience. All mom and dad have to do is say in writing they object and they want counsel and this becomes unwinnable for Hamilton county.

Great. Well, at least I know what I could be in for, if they actually do object. Thanks for the warning.

 

[HelpMyMom84]

Does not matter. Waivers of counsel must be found to be knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently given. You can't find that mom and dad waived the right to counsel and it was knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently a waiver without having proof that the parents KNEW that not appearing for this hearing would result in withdrawal. Up until this date they knew they had counsel. Read the entire case. Mom and dad have a winning appeal. This is going to be a long process.

What should have happened is that the attorneys should have been DENIED the permission to withdraw and represented their clients throughout the hearing. Then it would NOT be guaranteed. They could still object based upon a mistake of law. And then appeal. But right now, the mistake of law is the court allowed the PC to proceed with them unrepresented. This is an easy win for any attorney with appellate experience. All mom and dad have to do is say in writing they object and they want counsel and this becomes unwinnable for Hamilton county.

Sorry - reading through re:R.K. again that was posted. It seems that the court found the lower court in error because they did not make the inquiries that were required in re: Sadie R. and instead ruled off of the supposition that being absent meant she was waiving counsel. If the parents attorneys provided documentation for the two inquiries, would that not be sufficient given the totality of the circumstances? Whatever happened with the two attorneys happened in chambers, so I have no idea what was asked or presented as we were brought in after the fact.

 

[Ohiogal]

Sorry - reading through re:R.K. again that was posted. It seems that the court found the lower court in error because they did not make the inquiries that were required in re: Sadie R. and instead ruled off of the supposition that being absent meant she was waiving counsel. If the parents attorneys provided documentation for the two inquiries, would that not be sufficient given the totality of the circumstances? Whatever happened with the two attorneys happened in chambers, so I have no idea what was asked or presented as we were brought in after the fact.

You didn't listen to me. They need to be knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently made. If they applied for counsel, which they did if counsel were appointed, they were entitled to it. Allowing counsel to withdraw on the morning of the PC hearing -- a day they thought they had counsel -- without having a waiver on the record -- is plain error and a guaranteed reversal. Waivers of counsel in every type of proceeding (criminal and juvenile delinquency because this is first impression for the Supreme Court on this issue when it comes to PC) where it is appointed, need to be done on the record. you are in denial if you think that that is a loophole especially with what the Supreme Court ruled. Any attorney can win this argument. Heck, a pro se appellant with this case could win this argument by saying, I didn't waive and this case says so! Mom and dad win if they say anything to the court. If the court says no, buckle up.

 

[HelpMyMom84]

This is a different question, and possibly belongs in the adoption forum, but I wanted to keep everything together. I have three new questions.

Mom and dad had their rights terminated resulting from the trial that was held in May. The decision came down June 1st. They had until June 15th to appeal, which they did not. We have been successfully matched with my nieces and are moving forward with adoption.

Question one – Now that the appeal period has passed, is there anything that the parents can do to undo the adoption later down the road? I know that the general consensus was that they had a valid argument for an appeal, but if they decide to come back later, will they be able to do anything to disrupt since they did not file a timely appeal?

Question two - We have been getting a lot of pushback from our foster agency stating that we do not need an attorney for a foster care adoption and that the adoption worker from the county can complete the paperwork. I know that 86 of the 88 Ohio counties require an attorney, so I'm not sure why we are getting so much push back regarding our desire for counsel. I am afraid that if we push for an attorney, it will negatively affect our situation below. Do you think it's necessary to hire an attorney for this sort of adoption?

Second and more complicated situation. There were originally three siblings that came into care. They went to live with the bio grandparents. Bio grandparents decided after four months that they could not handle the girls, and put them into foster care without notifying family. They kept the youngest child, and they have had placement of him for two years. They refused to file for custody, and they repeatedly stated to everyone (HCJFS, GAL, the judge, etc) that they did not want to keep him long term. The plan for the last year was that he would move into our home, but in order to do that, we had to renovate our entire basement to add extra bedrooms, since we lived in a two bedroom house. We finally finished around the time of the PC trial. I have messages from grandpa as late as the middle of May discussing the child’s move to our home in June. When HCJFS tried to schedule the pick up, the grandparents flipped out and stated that they were getting an attorney and wanted to adopt.

This would be fine…except no one who was originally on the case thinks they are fit. They had a history of leaving the child alone with the parents, despite the safety restrictions. They stated repeatedly that they could not handle him and that it was best for him to live with us. They are the ones who did most of the work (they have a lot of money) on our basement so that he could move in. They also have health problems that keep the grandmother house bound, they refuse to let the child socialize, grandma has admitted to me that she trades pills with her addict daughter, etc. The list is eight miles long. JFS told me repeatedly that they knew this was going on, but that the only thing they could do was to move the child, and since we didn’t have a room ready yet, they didn’t want to put him in a temporary foster home. This worker was promoted and left our case in April, so she has not been involved in any discussions after that.

However, now the JFS worker is no longer on the case, and all of the new people believe everything that the grandparents are saying (as far as I can tell). Grandparents have requested an adoption home study, and the child is staying there until our match with the committee, which I believe will be done in the next 4-6 months. If the committee decides that grandparents are a good fit, that’s fine (except I know the child will either end up back in care or with mom and dad) – but is there anything I can do in terms of making sure that the committee is getting the full story? It is very frustrating right now, mostly for the sake of my nieces – they are devastated that their brother isn’t coming to live with them anytime soon, and grandparents have cut off all contact with us. They actually had a birthday party for the child and invited bio mom and dad but not his sisters. They have lost so much, I just want to try to advocate for them to be together the best that I can.

 

[LdiJ]

This is a different question, and possibly belongs in the adoption forum, but I wanted to keep everything together. I have three new questions.

Mom and dad had their rights terminated resulting from the trial that was held in May. The decision came down June 1st. They had until June 15th to appeal, which they did not. We have been successfully matched with my nieces and are moving forward with adoption.

Question one – Now that the appeal period has passed, is there anything that the parents can do to undo the adoption later down the road? I know that the general consensus was that they had a valid argument for an appeal, but if they decide to come back later, will they be able to do anything to disrupt since they did not file a timely appeal?

Question two - We have been getting a lot of pushback from our foster agency stating that we do not need an attorney for a foster care adoption and that the adoption worker from the county can complete the paperwork. I know that 86 of the 88 Ohio counties require an attorney, so I'm not sure why we are getting so much push back regarding our desire for counsel. I am afraid that if we push for an attorney, it will negatively affect our situation below. Do you think it's necessary to hire an attorney for this sort of adoption?

Second and more complicated situation. There were originally three siblings that came into care. They went to live with the bio grandparents. Bio grandparents decided after four months that they could not handle the girls, and put them into foster care without notifying family. They kept the youngest child, and they have had placement of him for two years. They refused to file for custody, and they repeatedly stated to everyone (HCJFS, GAL, the judge, etc) that they did not want to keep him long term. The plan for the last year was that he would move into our home, but in order to do that, we had to renovate our entire basement to add extra bedrooms, since we lived in a two bedroom house. We finally finished around the time of the PC trial. I have messages from grandpa as late as the middle of May discussing the child’s move to our home in June. When HCJFS tried to schedule the pick up, the grandparents flipped out and stated that they were getting an attorney and wanted to adopt.

This would be fine…except no one who was originally on the case thinks they are fit. They had a history of leaving the child alone with the parents, despite the safety restrictions. They stated repeatedly that they could not handle him and that it was best for him to live with us. They are the ones who did most of the work (they have a lot of money) on our basement so that he could move in. They also have health problems that keep the grandmother house bound, they refuse to let the child socialize, grandma has admitted to me that she trades pills with her addict daughter, etc. The list is eight miles long. JFS told me repeatedly that they knew this was going on, but that the only thing they could do was to move the child, and since we didn’t have a room ready yet, they didn’t want to put him in a temporary foster home. This worker was promoted and left our case in April, so she has not been involved in any discussions after that.

However, now the JFS worker is no longer on the case, and all of the new people believe everything that the grandparents are saying (as far as I can tell). Grandparents have requested an adoption home study, and the child is staying there until our match with the committee, which I believe will be done in the next 4-6 months. If the committee decides that grandparents are a good fit, that’s fine (except I know the child will either end up back in care or with mom and dad) – but is there anything I can do in terms of making sure that the committee is getting the full story? It is very frustrating right now, mostly for the sake of my nieces – they are devastated that their brother isn’t coming to live with them anytime soon, and grandparents have cut off all contact with us. They actually had a birthday party for the child and invited bio mom and dad but not his sisters. They have lost so much, I just want to try to advocate for them to be together the best that I can.

You have every right to have an attorney for your adoption. I cannot see any legitimate reason why the foster agency would have a problem with that.

I wouldn't do anything else however, regarding the little boy, until after your adoption of the girls is complete. Its better if you do not rock the boat.

 

[HelpMyMom84]

You have every right to have an attorney for your adoption. I cannot see any legitimate reason why the foster agency would have a problem with that.

I wouldn't do anything else however, regarding the little boy, until after your adoption of the girls is complete. Its better if you do not rock the boat.

From what I understand, they are getting a lot of pressure from the county to encourage their parents not to hire an attorney since it is reimbursable by the county. I am afraid that if I don't do anything regarding my nephew, he will be matched with the biograndparents and at that point it will be too late. Hopefully their home study takes a long time. There is always the possibility they might not get their home study approved, I suppose, but they have a huge house and present well, so I don't know that they will uncover their issues.

They actually told me back in May that they were planning on divorcing and grandpa was going to move to Florida (where his mistress resides). I HATE the thought of my nephew staying there with so much that is going to blow up the second the adoption papers are signed.

 

[Ohiogal]

This is a different question, and possibly belongs in the adoption forum, but I wanted to keep everything together. I have three new questions.

Mom and dad had their rights terminated resulting from the trial that was held in May. The decision came down June 1st. They had until June 15th to appeal, which they did not. We have been successfully matched with my nieces and are moving forward with adoption.

Question one – Now that the appeal period has passed, is there anything that the parents can do to undo the adoption later down the road? I know that the general consensus was that they had a valid argument for an appeal, but if they decide to come back later, will they be able to do anything to disrupt since they did not file a timely appeal?

Question two - We have been getting a lot of pushback from our foster agency stating that we do not need an attorney for a foster care adoption and that the adoption worker from the county can complete the paperwork. I know that 86 of the 88 Ohio counties require an attorney, so I'm not sure why we are getting so much push back regarding our desire for counsel. I am afraid that if we push for an attorney, it will negatively affect our situation below. Do you think it's necessary to hire an attorney for this sort of adoption?

Second and more complicated situation. There were originally three siblings that came into care. They went to live with the bio grandparents. Bio grandparents decided after four months that they could not handle the girls, and put them into foster care without notifying family. They kept the youngest child, and they have had placement of him for two years. They refused to file for custody, and they repeatedly stated to everyone (HCJFS, GAL, the judge, etc) that they did not want to keep him long term. The plan for the last year was that he would move into our home, but in order to do that, we had to renovate our entire basement to add extra bedrooms, since we lived in a two bedroom house. We finally finished around the time of the PC trial. I have messages from grandpa as late as the middle of May discussing the child’s move to our home in June. When HCJFS tried to schedule the pick up, the grandparents flipped out and stated that they were getting an attorney and wanted to adopt.

This would be fine…except no one who was originally on the case thinks they are fit. They had a history of leaving the child alone with the parents, despite the safety restrictions. They stated repeatedly that they could not handle him and that it was best for him to live with us. They are the ones who did most of the work (they have a lot of money) on our basement so that he could move in. They also have health problems that keep the grandmother house bound, they refuse to let the child socialize, grandma has admitted to me that she trades pills with her addict daughter, etc. The list is eight miles long. JFS told me repeatedly that they knew this was going on, but that the only thing they could do was to move the child, and since we didn’t have a room ready yet, they didn’t want to put him in a temporary foster home. This worker was promoted and left our case in April, so she has not been involved in any discussions after that.

However, now the JFS worker is no longer on the case, and all of the new people believe everything that the grandparents are saying (as far as I can tell). Grandparents have requested an adoption home study, and the child is staying there until our match with the committee, which I believe will be done in the next 4-6 months. If the committee decides that grandparents are a good fit, that’s fine (except I know the child will either end up back in care or with mom and dad) – but is there anything I can do in terms of making sure that the committee is getting the full story? It is very frustrating right now, mostly for the sake of my nieces – they are devastated that their brother isn’t coming to live with them anytime soon, and grandparents have cut off all contact with us. They actually had a birthday party for the child and invited bio mom and dad but not his sisters. They have lost so much, I just want to try to advocate for them to be together the best that I can.

Have they filed anything after June 15 through July 1?Because they had 30 days to appeal. That is fact.

 

[Ohiogal]

You have every right to have an attorney for your adoption. I cannot see any legitimate reason why the foster agency would have a problem with that.

I wouldn't do anything else however, regarding the little boy, until after your adoption of the girls is complete. Its better if you do not rock the boat.

You don't work in Ohio. I do. OH and I am an attorney in Ohio.