Plumber payment

[DaveT]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NJ

I hired a contractor in June of last year to install tile, a tub, and a toilet in our bathroom. The work was completed and I paid her in full on 7/2/08. It's now 6/5/09 and she just called me today to demand money for the plumber. In the contract she stated, "Plumbing services not included. Electrical services not included." She then hired a plumber to re-set the tub drain without my knowledge or authorization. I've never spoken to this plumber, never agreed on any work or prices, and have no contract with him. When he showed up at my house, my wife asked him his hourly rate, and he responded with something along the lines of "You don't want to know. You're lucky the contractor is paying us."

I feel that it's her responsibility to pay him. Am I wrong? Is it possible for the plumber to place a construction lien on my home even though the contractor hired him? I didn't get the actual price from the contractor; I was so angry that I just said goodbye and hung up the phone after about 2 minutes of arguing.

If it makes any difference, I also believe she already broke the contract by refusing to remove the debris from the job (which was included in the contract) after I did the demo work myself. This forced me to rent a truck and haul hundreds of pounds of tile and sheetrock away myself.

Thanks.

 

[BL]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NJ

I hired a contractor in June of last year to install tile, a tub, and a toilet in our bathroom. The work was completed and I paid her in full on 7/2/08. It's now 6/5/09 and she just called me today to demand money for the plumber. In the contract she stated, "Plumbing services not included. Electrical services not included." She then hired a plumber to re-set the tub drain without my knowledge or authorization. I've never spoken to this plumber, never agreed on any work or prices, and have no contract with him. When he showed up at my house, my wife asked him his hourly rate, and he responded with something along the lines of "You don't want to know. You're lucky the contractor is paying us."

I feel that it's her responsibility to pay him. Am I wrong? Is it possible for the plumber to place a construction lien on my home even though the contractor hired him? I didn't get the actual price from the contractor; I was so angry that I just said goodbye and hung up the phone after about 2 minutes of arguing.

If it makes any difference, I also believe she already broke the contract by refusing to remove the debris from the job (which was included in the contract) after I did the demo work myself. This forced me to rent a truck and haul hundreds of pounds of tile and sheetrock away myself.

Thanks.

Be realistic.How was the contractor suppose to install a new tub and toilet with out some sorta plumbing involved .

If the rate fees are way over price of what other reputable plumbers fees are ,then you could dispute the difference .

The contractor should have consulted a plumber however for your approval.

You seemed to have allowed the work though .

What have you done to dispute the contract on debris removal , with the contractor ?

Looks like it might have to be hammered out in court ,unless the parties can come to a compromise .If you do get it in writing , signed and dated ,with the i's dotted and t's crossed.

 

[justalayman]

In the contract she stated, "Plumbing services not included. Electrical services not included." She then hired a plumber to re-set the tub drain without my knowledge or authorization. .

So, what did she say when you said you were hiring your own plumber?

As BL states, how would you expect the work to get done without a plumber?


Did your contract state who was to have the plumbing work contracted?

I believe it is a poor contract that simply leaves such an item to float about in the ether world as to pricing. It should have been included in the contract.

Was there any money put in to the contract for plumbing? Generally what a general contractor will do is quote a price and include some amount of money for an item not priced quoted accurately. If the item takes less money than is designated for that item, customer is credited. If it goes over, customer is billed.

as with any reasonable contract, any changes should be required to be approved by the customer other than the possibility of some level of discretion afforded the contractor or a defined amount ($) change.

 

[DaveT]

I realize that I'm being unreasonable here; but the contract has been changed so many times that I'm recalcitrant to pay any more money.

After we signed the initial contract, I contacted her to ask how much the cost would change if I did the demo myself. She told me it would cut an entire day's labor off of it, lowering the price by $8-900 (over the phone, not in writing). So I agreed to that and did the demo myself. In the final bill, she only lowered the price by $400 and denied ever agreeing to the higher amount. She also refused to cut out the "debris removal" fee because they did remove the bathtub. But that was all; they left all the rest of the debris piled in my garage because I did the demo myself.

The plumbers also told my wife that they typically work in the much wealthier towns nearby, and thus charge higher than normal rates, which is when she asked them how much it was going to cost us. I don't know how much they're looking for, but I'm certain that it will prove to be excessive. Actually, the only thing the plumbers did was move the drain 6 inches further away from the wall to align with the new tub. In order to do that they had to cut a whole in the ceiling of the boiler room below, which nobody ever patched up. It couldn't have taken more than an hour and could have been done by any plumber; there was no reason to use the most expensive one possible.

Like I said, I know I'm being unreasonable, but I feel that I've already been ripped off in the range of $5-600. I paid her the entire amount of the final invoice even though I didn't feel it was what we had agreed on just to get her out of my life, and I'm in a state of utter disbelief that she's calling me 11 and 1/2 months later to press me for more money. I'll find the plumbers and pay them directly if they have the right to file a lien against me, but I'm just... I'm just livid.

 

[justalayman]

well, I do not think you are being totally unreasonable. You obviously do not feel you have been dealt with fairly and are understandably upset.


so, end of warm and fuzzy:


I would suggest accepting the plumbing costs. Then (and only after her presentation of the plumbing costs), I would counter with the costs of removal of debris you had to undertake due to her lack of her removing what she contracted to. Be cautious here. depending on how the contract is worded, she may be able to claim she was responsible for only what she demo'd and not the material you demo'd.

If anything such as "return disturbed areas to original condition" or anything that would infer the ceiling had to be repaired (as opposed to opting out as she did with the plumbing), I would also apply that against her plumbing claim. If you have to get estimates, do so.

before payment is made, you need a release of all claims and a statement that all subcontractors and suppliers have been paid in full and she will be responsible for any subsequent claims presented by any involved suppliers or subcontractors.

If there have been any liens recorded, you also need to obtain a release of the liens.

but to answer the basic question of: can the plumber place a lien against the property; yes. That is why you need to obtain a release of all claims and if a lien has been placed, a release of said lien.