Police reports are only "heresay"? How do you prove?

[NITM]

What is the name of your state? CA

In another post I was told by Ohiogal that police reports for ex's violations of court order are only considered "heresay" by the court, and that one would need "proof" that the ex violated the visitation order. I know I'm naive, but I find this very difficult to understand. Please, someone enlighten me.

If a police officer is present and looking at a court order, and determines that the ex is not home and therefore denying a visitation at that time, how is that not proof? Please, someone tell me what IS proof then, and WHY does the court or a lawyer keep advising you to get police reports if they don't mean anything? What can and should my husband do when the ex violates their order and withhold's visitation? And as far as going in exparte, she usually denys visits that begin on a Friday evening, and we can't go to court until Monday or Tuesday, so how do we prove that we didn't have my stepson all weekend?

Even now, the ex just sent another letter giving my husband less than 24 hours notice that stepson's soccer practices begin. She again signed up stepson for something without consulting with husband, as she is supposed to do per the court order, that overlaps with his time. She also knows husband disagrees with son being in sports at this time due to failing grades on every report card for the past 3 years. What should he do?What is the name of your state? She continues to do these things because she knows the court will never do or say anything to her.

 

[Gracie3787]

What is the name of your state? CA

In another post I was told by Ohiogal that police reports for ex's violations of court order are only considered "heresay" by the court, and that one would need "proof" that the ex violated the visitation order. I know I'm naive, but I find this very difficult to understand. Please, someone enlighten me.

If a police officer is present and looking at a court order, and determines that the ex is not home and therefore denying a visitation at that time, how is that not proof? Please, someone tell me what IS proof then, and WHY does the court or a lawyer keep advising you to get police reports if they don't mean anything? What can and should my husband do when the ex violates their order and withhold's visitation? And as far as going in exparte, she usually denys visits that begin on a Friday evening, and we can't go to court until Monday or Tuesday, so how do we prove that we didn't have my stepson all weekend?

Even now, the ex just sent another letter giving my husband less than 24 hours notice that stepson's soccer practices begin. She again signed up stepson for something without consulting with husband, as she is supposed to do per the court order, that overlaps with his time. She also knows husband disagrees with son being in sports at this time due to failing grades on every report card for the past 3 years. What should he do?What is the name of your state? She continues to do these things because she knows the court will never do or say anything to her.

You should post this question on the same thread as the reply you are referring to, or, if that thread is locked you should post a link to it so that we'll know what you are talking about. It's hard to answer when we don't know the whole story.

 

[fairisfair]

You should post this question on the same thread as the reply you are referring to, or, if that thread is locked you should post a link to it so that we'll know what you are talking about. It's hard to answer when we don't know the whole story.

https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=333352&page=3&highlight=hijack

she was advised to open her own thread

 

[Gracie3787]

https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=333352&page=3&highlight=hijack

she was advised to open her own thread

Ahh, thank you.

 

[Gracie3787]

What is the name of your state? CA

In another post I was told by Ohiogal that police reports for ex's violations of court order are only considered "heresay" by the court, and that one would need "proof" that the ex violated the visitation order. I know I'm naive, but I find this very difficult to understand. Please, someone enlighten me.

If a police officer is present and looking at a court order, and determines that the ex is not home and therefore denying a visitation at that time, how is that not proof? Please, someone tell me what IS proof then, and WHY does the court or a lawyer keep advising you to get police reports if they don't mean anything? What can and should my husband do when the ex violates their order and withhold's visitation? And as far as going in exparte, she usually denys visits that begin on a Friday evening, and we can't go to court until Monday or Tuesday, so how do we prove that we didn't have my stepson all weekend?

Even now, the ex just sent another letter giving my husband less than 24 hours notice that stepson's soccer practices begin. She again signed up stepson for something without consulting with husband, as she is supposed to do per the court order, that overlaps with his time. She also knows husband disagrees with son being in sports at this time due to failing grades on every report card for the past 3 years. What should he do?What is the name of your state? She continues to do these things because she knows the court will never do or say anything to her.

Normally in a situation where the police report (with an officer as a witness) is done at the time of Mom wasn't home, it can be used as proof. HOWEVER, it is up to that particular Judge as to whether it's accepted as proof or not. Your husband just happened to get a Judge who decided not to pay attention to your proof, and unfortunately there really isn't anything he can do about it now.

 

[weenor]

What is the name of your state? CA

In another post I was told by Ohiogal that police reports for ex's violations of court order are only considered "heresay" by the court, and that one would need "proof" that the ex violated the visitation order. I know I'm naive, but I find this very difficult to understand. Please, someone enlighten me.

If a police officer is present and looking at a court order, and determines that the ex is not home and therefore denying a visitation at that time, how is that not proof?

Its the report that he writes that is hearsay. The report by itself is not admissible. However, the officer can be subpoenaed to testify and the report may be used to "refresh his recollection."

Please, someone tell me what IS proof then, and WHY does the court or a lawyer keep advising you to get police reports if they don't mean anything?

The report allows the officer to memorialize the event so that he can refer to the report two or three years down the road at the trial. In addition, such reports while not admissible can be viewed by the GAL or evaluator for consideration in making recommendations about placement or visitation.

What can and should my husband do when the ex violates their order and withhold's visitation?

File police reports and/or document the events as they happen. Notes can be reviewed by the GAL and can be used to "refresh" you recollection when testifying in court.

And as far as going in exparte, she usually denys visits that begin on a Friday evening, and we can't go to court until Monday or Tuesday, so how do we prove that we didn't have my stepson all weekend?

see above

Even now, the ex just sent another letter giving my husband less than 24 hours notice that stepson's soccer practices begin. She again signed up stepson for something without consulting with husband, as she is supposed to do per the court order, that overlaps with his time. She also knows husband disagrees with son being in sports at this time due to failing grades on every report card for the past 3 years. What should he do?

see above

What is the name of your state? She continues to do these things because she knows the court will never do or say anything to her.

All court order violations should be contemporaneously documented (as they happen) for the reasons I have written. When you have several violations, time to go back to court for contempt.

 

[NITM]

We document like crazy and filed contempt with 9 police reports, not to mention the harassing letters and her thinking she's allowed to modify the order independently, and the court still did nothing - didn't even so much as tell her to knock it off. Just said it's too hard to prove. My husband feels so frustrated and helpless that he's ready to just give up and let her do what she wants, because she gets away with everything anyway and knows she can. The court always has an attitude like they don't care and just hurry up and get out of their face so they can go to lunch. And if you go in Pro Se, heaven help you, they don't want to be bothered and look at you like you're from another planet.

I guess we just have to learn to live with being harassed daily by the crazy ex. The courts are obviously never going to do anything about it.

 

[Ohiogal]

Normally in a situation where the police report (with an officer as a witness) is done at the time of Mom wasn't home, it can be used as proof. HOWEVER, it is up to that particular Judge as to whether it's accepted as proof or not. Your husband just happened to get a Judge who decided not to pay attention to your proof, and unfortunately there really isn't anything he can do about it now.

The police officer has to be brought into court to testify about what he observed. His words on a piece of paper when mom cannot cross examine is considered hearsay. The police report can be used to show that dad called the police at the time (or shortly thereafter) his visitation was to begin and he showed. Then dad testifies that he did not get the kids. And shows that per the court order he was supposed to. But police reports in and of themselves are not proof.

 

[Ohiogal]

We document like crazy and filed contempt with 9 police reports, not to mention the harassing letters and her thinking she's allowed to modify the order independently, and the court still did nothing - didn't even so much as tell her to knock it off. Just said it's too hard to prove. My husband feels so frustrated and helpless that he's ready to just give up and let her do what she wants, because she gets away with everything anyway and knows she can. The court always has an attitude like they don't care and just hurry up and get out of their face so they can go to lunch. And if you go in Pro Se, heaven help you, they don't want to be bothered and look at you like you're from another planet.

I guess we just have to learn to live with being harassed daily by the crazy ex. The courts are obviously never going to do anything about it.

When you go in Pro Se you are expected to follow all procedures and relate everything to the law. You need to know HOW to prove what you are alleging. If your husband cannot do that then nothing will happen to ex. He needs more than just the police reports and letters he considers harrassing. They need to be harassing according to the law.

 

[NITM]

Well, since the ex used to work in the divorce & mediation field many years ago, she knows exactly how to work the system, lies through her teeth and makes sure we never get any "proof" that that could be used in court, so I guess we're just screwed. She knows exactly how far she can take any given trick she pulls so that she can't "really" get in trouble in court. She lies in court, lies in her declarations/letters, lies to the DCSS regarding child support. She's even lied about what happened IN the courtroom before, but I'm sure we can't "prove" that either unless they run video tape 24/7 in the courtrooms and would let us recall that information (probably not). One time the judge ruled for my husband and the ex started bawling her head off in the courtroom (she always does). We immediately left with our lawyer at the time and went home (and the next day she denied a weekday visitation as punishment). The next time she took my husband to court trying to get more changes to the court order, she actually wrote in her declaration that the last time they were in court, my husband acted in such a hostile manner towards her in the courtroom that she "had to be escorted to her car by the baliff" WHAT?? How can she get away with lies like that? He never even spoke to her!

 

[Zephyr]

Well, since the ex used to work in the divorce & mediation field many years ago, she knows exactly how to work the system, lies through her teeth and makes sure we never get any "proof" that that could be used in court, so I guess we're just screwed. She knows exactly how far she can take any given trick she pulls so that she can't "really" get in trouble in court. She lies in court, lies in her declarations/letters, lies to the DCSS regarding child support. She's even lied about what happened IN the courtroom before, but I'm sure we can't "prove" that either unless they run video tape 24/7 in the courtrooms and would let us recall that information (probably not). One time the judge ruled for my husband and the ex started bawling her head off in the courtroom (she always does). We immediately left with our lawyer at the time and went home (and the next day she denied a weekday visitation as punishment). The next time she took my husband to court trying to get more changes to the court order, she actually wrote in her declaration that the last time they were in court, my husband acted in such a hostile manner towards her in the courtroom that she "had to be escorted to her car by the baliff" WHAT?? How can she get away with lies like that? He never even spoke to her!

No you can do what you were told and bring the police officers who write the reports to court.

 

[NoDiggety]

Well, since the ex used to work in the divorce & mediation field many years ago, she knows exactly how to work the system, lies through her teeth and makes sure we never get any "proof" that that could be used in court, so I guess we're just screwed. She knows exactly how far she can take any given trick she pulls so that she can't "really" get in trouble in court. She lies in court, lies in her declarations/letters, lies to the DCSS regarding child support. She's even lied about what happened IN the courtroom before, but I'm sure we can't "prove" that either unless they run video tape 24/7 in the courtrooms and would let us recall that information (probably not). One time the judge ruled for my husband and the ex started bawling her head off in the courtroom (she always does). We immediately left with our lawyer at the time and went home (and the next day she denied a weekday visitation as punishment). The next time she took my husband to court trying to get more changes to the court order, she actually wrote in her declaration that the last time they were in court, my husband acted in such a hostile manner towards her in the courtroom that she "had to be escorted to her car by the baliff" WHAT?? How can she get away with lies like that? He never even spoke to her!

This is all bullsh*t. All you are doing is making excuses and whining. If you truly believe all of this crap, then lay back down and be the rug that you are.

 

[Ohiogal]

Well, since the ex used to work in the divorce & mediation field many years ago, she knows exactly how to work the system, lies through her teeth and makes sure we never get any "proof" that that could be used in court, so I guess we're just screwed. She knows exactly how far she can take any given trick she pulls so that she can't "really" get in trouble in court.

Or maybe your husband doesn't know how to catch her in her lies to prove that she is lying.

She lies in court, lies in her declarations/letters, lies to the DCSS regarding child support.

And what proof does hubby provide to show that she is lying. Or does he question the lack of proof and her credibility when she testifies?

She's even lied about what happened IN the courtroom before, but I'm sure we can't "prove" that either unless they run video tape 24/7 in the courtrooms and would let us recall that information (probably not).

Pay the money and GET A TRANSCRIPT! It will cost you about $3.00 a page for it to by typed up by a court reporter but it is proof and if she is going on back on what she said in previous court hearings then that is perjury if you have the transcript to use as proof.

One time the judge ruled for my husband and the ex started bawling her head off in the courtroom (she always does).


So what?

We immediately left with our lawyer at the time and went home (and the next day she denied a weekday visitation as punishment).

And did hubby show up to get his kids for weekday visitation? Did hubby file in court to take her back? And if you have a lawyer, how did your lawyer attempt to discredit her?

The next time she took my husband to court trying to get more changes to the court order, she actually wrote in her declaration that the last time they were in court, my husband acted in such a hostile manner towards her in the courtroom that she "had to be escorted to her car by the baliff" WHAT?? How can she get away with lies like that? He never even spoke to her!

That may not have been a lie. She may have been escorted to the car by the baliff because she FELT your husband was hostile in his testimony. And if she stated that, did your husband/his attorney question her about how he was hostile?

 

[NITM]

I know I may sound completely ignorant to some, but that's because I'm not a lawyer and simply don't know these things. We don't know what to do that will actually work in court. We hear a lot of different advice, which we take, but none of it ever seems to matter. That's why I'm came here to this site and are asking all of you. If you're not an attorney, the procedures and jargon are very confusing.

When the ex brings up the phoney child support issues, I call the DCSS and they mail us a payment record. They also verbally verify that hubby has a flawless payment history and doesn't owe anything to her. They ask what the ex's problem is and think she's nuts. The court just ignores it all though, so she keeps mailing demand letters to our home every few months.

You're right, my husband DOESN'T know how to catch her in her lies, and many of her lies that are in her letter are made-up things that there's no way to prove, and she knows it. She obviously also knows that she can throw all the fits she wants to in the mediators office, because they don't even let the judge know what she's doing and how difficult she's being. My husband said that when ex is looking away, even the mediators look at him, shaking their head in disbelief at what a spoiled insane child she behaves like.

Until your post just now, I wasn't aware that we could even request a transcript of what was said in court. My husband wasn't hostile in his testimony or to her - the judge was doing all the talking. All hubby said was "Yes maam" or "No maam" to the questions the judge asked him and that was IT, plus his attorney was there speaking for him on everything else. The judge was the one who told ex that she couldn't speak any further because she's made her decision, and that she should be thankful towards husband for providing all the transportation up until then. That's when she started bawling and that's when we left immediately with our attorney. However, when she happens to get away with something in court, she follows us out into the hallway, laughs and makes mocking facial gestures at us, and makes sure she gets in the same elevator as us so she can keep laughing in our faces. We've brought that up to the court's attention as well, but they don't care and didn't say anything to her.

My husband ALWAYS shows up to get his son when he's supposed to, and yes he did get another police report which was submitted with all the rest when we brought her to court for contempt. But as always, it was meaningless.

We have no idea how to get the police officer to court to testify. Do we have to subpoena him? The officer had written in several that "she clearly violated the court order" in his opinion - geez you'd think that would be proof enough.

Husband can't question her on anything . . . she hangs up on him all the time and makes sure she's not home when he arrives to pick up his son. She even refuses to discuss school issues regarding the son - she doesn't want to hear anything. The only way she communicates anything is by sending her insane letters, and then demands that husband is not allowed to send a written response back to her unless he "handwrites it in 5 words or less". (We even got ANOTHER crazy letter last night, again stating that she's filing suit against US for harassment). When they go mediation, she throws a fit and demands separate rooms (which the judge denied), yet she states that my husband is the one who "refuses to communicate" WTF??

Regardless of what is thought of me here, I truly appreciate and am noting all of your comments. Thank you so much.

 

[SingleMom67]

Simple answer

It is blatantly apparent that your husband has been either moving through this process without hiring a lawyer, minimally using one, or, at best, using a bad one. You get what you pay for. Spend the money, hire a good attorney, and have the b.s. stopped! It's amazing how the game playing ceases when you have competent representation!