Post interview request by candidate for government positon discrimination

[kolabok]

As someone who has sat on hiring panels for federal positions, I've researched extensively what the process is. And nowhere is there an edict that we must provide feedback to those interviewed. And for that, I'm thankful. Not because we've done something wrong, but because it would be painfully time-consuming to do so.

The other issue is this: giving honest feedback isn't fun. At all. I don't want to tell an interviewee that they ramble, didn't answer the questions asked, gave nonsensical answers, or gave odd answers. And for the interviewers who did well, but just not AS well as the ultimate winner? Well, that kinda stinks, too. Because I also don't want to tell someone "you did everything right, but you just weren't good enough to come out on top."

Your postings here are not easy to understand; you tend to ramble. A lot. If you come across that way in an interview, I can understand why you weren't selected.

I was invited to post, give information and coherently, ramble here, in this forum. The door was opened by other posters.
It would be beneficial and cost effective for the interviewer to pull a name out of a hat, instead of dealing with all the feedback one would have to provide if so ordered, but as it has been clearly defined, no such laws, regs or any other etiquette is required of hiring managers, whether private or government . My time sure has changed the candor of people, with the influx of faceless communication, makes being honest a backwoods idea.
At any rate, thank you for your opinion from the shadows, shadowbunny

 

[kolabok]

And as someone who, upon a couple of occasions when I was very young, made the mistake of actually giving some feedback to a failed applicant, let me tell you that few candidates will pay attention and treat it as a learning experience. Rather, they will take the opportunity to explain, usually at length, how the interviewer completely misunderstood and what they REALLY said/did/meant experienced was and how we should now rescind the offer that had already been made to someone else because now that we understood that the failed applicant was really the best choice, of course we'd be giving them an offer now and...

No, thank you. Not going down THAT road again.

Almost short of being a witness in a court of law where one is demanded of their feedback.

It is a broken biased system that has spawned as our society has devolved to self. Perhaps introducing legislation to my state elected officials to change the way, at least in government to provide feedback. But I can see it being road blocked by self interests of the individual's who are in control. Billy's uncle is next in line, I get it.

thanks

 

[kolabok]

When I graduated from college many years ago, the first job I went for was a very highly coveted finance position with a top Fortune 50 company, Company A. I was lucky, I was one of the 12 people selected to interview for one of the four positions that were open. I flew out for the interview at their expense and had what I thought was a good series of interviews. Company A had just taken over Company B in a merger, and the job was with a defense unit of Company B. As a result, I interviewed with officials from both companies. I did not get the job and called my contact at Company A to ask what I might have done better to get the job. The answer was, I think, very honest, though not helpful. He told me that all the candidates were extremely well qualified and quite similar in many respects: graduated from top universities with steller grades, etc. He told me that the interviewers from Company B loved me and wanted to select me for the job. They’d be the people I'd actually be working for. But he said Company A, having just took over, was taking control of the process, wanted to put its mark on the acquired company and select the type of candidates it has always liked, and the Company A people got to make the final call.

So what was it that Company A did not like? I was the sole candidate that was not from the East Coast, and Company A had a bias against anyone not from the East Coast. When he said that, I recalled an odd question from one of the interviewers that focused on just that, asking me if I could fit in on the East Coast. That particular panel treated me a bit like I might have been some country bumpkin. That’s what told me his explanation to me rang true. He told me I only got the interview in the first place because I was the most persistent of the lot. Company B liked that; Company A not so much. I wasn’t from the East Coast; I simply wasn’t Company A’s “kind of person.” Well discrimination based on not having an East Coast background is not illegal, so Company A could make that call. It told me nothing about how I might have done better (and I’m not sure I could have) but it told me a lot about large corporate politics that has served me well since.

All that to say that hiring decisions, particularly in large organizations, often may have as much to do with the politics of the organization doing the hiring as it does with the qualifications of the people applying for the job. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. You just have to recognize that sometimes they just won’t see you as a good fit for their organization, even with steller qualifications.

Absolutely true of what you say, all across the playing field. It is bent towards personnel interests.

I did not mention the fact I had applied four times for the same job in a year's time. Doesn't matter I have 20 years experience, live and pay taxes in the same county for well, a lifetime. Heck I even applied for gate keeper at the dump. I guess I am either to smart or to stupid to work for an east coast county in the state I live in.

Discrimination! Yes you better believe it. Yes, difficult to prove it. Is it right? who cares. I fear a time will come in the near future, when none of this will mean squat, when people are trying to survive from a financial meltdown. time will tell.

thanks

 

[eerelations]

Discrimination! Yes you better believe it. Yes, difficult to prove it.

It's not a matter of how difficult it is to prove (or even whether or not it can be proved). As Taxing Matters said, the type of discrimination he experienced is not illegal. So proving/not proving it is completely and utterly moot.

 

[commentator]

And when I worked with people seeking employment who tended to feel as you do, that it's a crooked dishonest system yada yada, that we should pass laws that would make this sort of thing UNFAIR and therefore illegal, yada yada, I always wanted to point out (though I did not) that things used to be ONE heck of a whole lot worse, as in Tammany Hall type federal state and local politics, and nepotism has always been rampant in every stretch of the backwoods I have ever been in.

People who have the advantages simply want to give those same advantages to their own friends and family first, hire people they are most comfortable with, and pretty much do what they please. And they can. Only since a few anti discrimination/anti nepotism laws and controls have been passed has it been in any way less this way or in any way improved. Thank GOD for the feds, who keep the states from being quite the terrible mess of patronage they would otherwise be, and then there are local government offices where it's easier. And it certainly happens.

The only think you can do is keep applying, keep a positive attitude, DO NOT let anyone who might someday be in position to interview and hire you hear what you think of this crooked system, how you hate it, how you'd like to make laws to change it all to make it fair for you. In the meantime, accept it as it is. Check out any political contacts you might have that would be able to help you get a job. Or stop applying for these jobs. You may not be perceived to be doing them the favor you perceive yourself to be giving them by offering to work with them.

"Gate keeper at the dump" is a job that would suit some people, but would obviously be nothing but a stepping stone to other positions and a situation not appreciated or taken seriously by some others. And they're not likely to be hired for it.

 

[Taxing Matters]

It's not a matter of how difficult it is to prove (or even whether or not it can be proved). As Taxing Matters said, the type of discrimination he experienced is not illegal. So proving/not proving it is completely and utterly moot.

Right. However stupid it may have been that they were biased against people from outside the East Coast, it was not illegal and they were perfectly free to make that choice. And I support their right to pick candidates that way if they choose. It is not really the place of the government to dictate to business who they must hire and fire. That should be left up to the business to decide. The good companies will make smart decisions, the bad ones will make poor decisions and ultimately the bad ones end up out of business.

 

[not2cleverRed]

I was invited to post, give information and coherently, ramble here, in this forum. The door was opened by other posters.
It would be beneficial and cost effective for the interviewer to pull a name out of a hat, instead of dealing with all the feedback one would have to provide if so ordered, but as it has been clearly defined, no such laws, regs or any other etiquette is required of hiring managers, whether private or government . My time sure has changed the candor of people, with the influx of faceless communication, makes being honest a backwoods idea.
At any rate, thank you for your opinion from the shadows, shadowbunny

Really?

I found your initial post to be incoherent.

I found your later posts to be... immature. You act like someone who has never been employed before, fresh out of school, and yet you have allegedly 20 years of experience.

No. You do not have a case.

No. It would not make sense to try and legislate what you want. At least, if I understand what you're asking for correctly.

 

[Taxing Matters]

Perhaps introducing legislation to my state elected officials to change the way, at least in government to provide feedback. But I can see it being road blocked by self interests of the individual's who are in control.

If you were in my state I’d oppose that legislation too, and I'm not in government. What you want would add more cost and burden to government that serves no real purpose and that I don’t want to pay for. Telling rejected applicants how they did on the interview might be a nice thing to do for a interviewer inclined to do it, but in most cases the results of forced feedback would likely be not at all helpful to you as the interviewers are unlikely to be truly candid with you when they are forced to do it. What you’ll get instead are generic, canned answers to your questions which ends up being nothing but a waste of your time and theirs and, like I said, ultimately a waste of taxpayer dollars. I understand that you really would like to have one of these government jobs and want to know what it will take to get one, but the route you propose would, I think, not help you achieve that goal.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

On the private employment side I can guarantee that if I had to issue a report to everyone I interviewed for a position I would interview a lot fewer applicants. That would hurt both potential applicants and the employers I interview for.

 

[cbg]

Almost short of being a witness in a court of law where one is demanded of their feedback.

It is a broken biased system that has spawned as our society has devolved to self. Perhaps introducing legislation to my state elected officials to change the way, at least in government to provide feedback. But I can see it being road blocked by self interests of the individual's who are in control. Billy's uncle is next in line, I get it.

thanks

You completely misunderstood everything I said. Which, btw, proves my point.

 

[Zigner]

Individuals who demand that the world revolve around them are often weeded out during the interview process.

 

[kolabok]

Some of the posters are cordial and some are belligerent and down right nasty. I guess playing devils advocate in the arena of hiring practices ticks off a few individuals. anybody including myself would never for one moment believe all is fair in hiring practices, its business as usual. What the adage, its not who you know but who you ----. We can see that dog and pony show daily. But anyway, i was looking for info on the subject, and there is none worthy to pursue beyond this forum and certainly not worth the effort to engage politics into the otherwise sloppiness of hiring practices.

done, thanks,

 

[kolabok]

Individuals who demand that the world revolve around them are often weeded out during the interview process.

I think humble pie is easier to do than make the world revolve around self.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

Some of the posters are cordial and some are belligerent and down right nasty. I guess playing devils advocate in the arena of hiring practices ticks off a few individuals. anybody including myself would never for one moment believe all is fair in hiring practices, its business as usual. What the adage, its not who you know but who you ----. We can see that dog and pony show daily. But anyway, i was looking for info on the subject, and there is none worthy to pursue beyond this forum and certainly not worth the effort to engage politics into the otherwise sloppiness of hiring practices.

done, thanks,

Not telling you why you didn't get hired is not sloppiness.

 

[Shadowbunny]

Some of the posters are cordial and some are belligerent and down right nasty. I guess playing devils advocate in the arena of hiring practices ticks off a few individuals. anybody including myself would never for one moment believe all is fair in hiring practices, its business as usual. What the adage, its not who you know but who you ----. We can see that dog and pony show daily. But anyway, i was looking for info on the subject, and there is none worthy to pursue beyond this forum and certainly not worth the effort to engage politics into the otherwise sloppiness of hiring practices.

done, thanks,

No one has been belligerent nor nasty to you here. But I'm truly beginning to see why you haven't been hired; your "woe is me" attitude would put off any potential employer. As long as you continue to tell yourself that it's the system that's keeping you from getting these jobs, I predict that you'll never get the job you desire.

If you're truly interested in improving your chances of getting a job, check out the "Ask A Manager" blog. The author has put together some really useful, practical information on resumes, cover letters, and interviewing.