public domain

[TrustUser]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? california

i have a half-way understanding of public domain, but i had a specific question.

hopefully this is a federal law, and not 50 different state versions.

let's say there is a tv show in public domain.

a dvd company comes along, and takes that info, and transfers it into blu-ray quality.

and then puts the blu-rays on the market.

i know some guy can come along and sell the original stuff in public domain.

can he just as freely take the blu-rays, and simply copy them and sell them ?

in other words, just what is in public domain, in this instance ?

 

[quincy]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? california

i have a half-way understanding of public domain, but i had a specific question.

hopefully this is a federal law, and not 50 different state versions.

let's say there is a tv show in public domain.

a dvd company comes along, and takes that info, and transfers it into blu-ray quality.

and then puts the blu-rays on the market.

i know some guy can come along and sell the original stuff in public domain.

can he just as freely take the blu-rays, and simply copy them and sell them ?

in other words, just what is in public domain, in this instance ?

Only the original works are in the public domain.

Several public domain black-and-white movies, for example, were "colorized" by Ted Turner. The black-and-white versions are free for anyone to use without worry. The colorized versions are rights-protected and cannot be used without gaining permission from the rights-holder.

 

[TrustUser]

Only the original works are in the public domain.

Several public domain black-and-white movies, for example, were "colorized" by Ted Turner. The black-and-white versions are free for anyone to use without worry. The colorized versions are rights-protected and cannot be used without gaining permission from the rights-holder.

there is a particular tv show in which only the first 3 seasons do not have copyright protection. the last 8 do.

i am hoping, of course, that you are correct.

i have done some research, and know that colorizing meets the test of being able to be copyrighted.

but there seems to be some argument about whether or not transferring to blu-ray can be copyrighted.

it supposedly takes a lot of work to do so. it would truly be a loss to the public if we dont protect "a lot of work", cuz few people would put forth a lot of effort, when it can all be stolen from him with a push of dvd burner button.

 

[quincy]

there is a particular tv show in which only the first 3 seasons do not have copyright protection. the last 8 do.

i am hoping, of course, that you are correct.

i have done some research, and know that colorizing meets the test of being able to be copyrighted.

but there seems to be some argument about whether or not transferring to blu-ray can be copyrighted.

it supposedly takes a lot of work to do so. it would truly be a loss to the public if we dont protect "a lot of work", cuz few people would put forth a lot of effort, when it can all be stolen from him with a push of dvd burner button.

You will want to look at the Digital Millennium Copyright Act for the laws that limit this type of copying. http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

While the film itself may be in the public domain, with no original and creative additions or changes that can qualify for copyright protection (like the colorization of public domain films, or translations of public domain works, or edits of public domain works), you can still violate copyright laws - even if you are not infringing on anyone's copyright.

Under the DMCA, you cannot circumvent any technical protection measures or digital locks on DVDs or VHSs or Blu-rays to make copies (although there are exceptions for, for example, educational purposes) - so breaking access controls to copy the works would violate the law.

I should add, though, that this particular part of the DMCA (the DMCA of which addresses a mess of internet copyright issues) is not extremely popular.

 

[TrustUser]

i have tried to do some research on it, but i can not find anything conclusive yet.

will let you know if i find anything that i think may be relevant, for you to comment on.

 

[TrustUser]

Perhaps it might help me a bit if I know what your concerns are exactly. Are you interested in making copies of the Blu-rays that have the old tv shows on them, or are you concerned that others will make copies of the Blu-rays?

the show is make room for daddy (mrfd)

some people are commenting that the thomas estate wont make hd transfers of it because it is public domain

i have already found lots of films that are pd, but transferred to hd (many were not colorized)

so i have reason to suspect that there is some sort of protection, in at least some instances

but i want to provide some sort of proof, be it a section of law, or better yet - an actual case of when one of these transfers was allowed to be copyrighted, or not allowed.

with mrfd, i think there is still hope because on the copyright holders can put out seasons 4-11. and even if someone else can steal the hd transfers for s 1-3, only the thomas estate can put out a full package of all 11 seasons.

but with an individual film, that is the whole kit and caboodle.

i just dont think it is likely that so many films had a somewhat expensive process done to them, if there is absolutely no protection for those that did it.

but what i think or dont think dont make no difference.

i want to provide some real proof of real cases !!

 

[quincy]

the show is make room for daddy (mrfd)

some people are commenting that the thomas estate wont make hd transfers of it because it is public domain

i have already found lots of films that are pd, but transferred to hd (many were not colorized)

so i have reason to suspect that there is some sort of protection, in at least some instances

but i want to provide some sort of proof, be it a section of law, or better yet - an actual case of when one of these transfers was allowed to be copyrighted, or not allowed.

with mrfd, i think there is still hope because on the copyright holders can put out seasons 4-11. and even if someone else can steal the hd transfers for s 1-3, only the thomas estate can put out a full package of all 11 seasons.

but with an individual film, that is the whole kit and caboodle.

i just dont think it is likely that so many films had a somewhat expensive process done to them, if there is absolutely no protection for those that did it.

but what i think or dont think dont make no difference.

i want to provide some real proof of real cases !!

Some of the public domain tv shows may now be protected under trademark laws and right of publicity laws instead of copyright laws. The Danny Thomas estate may hold all of these rights (and rights to the scripts). So circumventing the protection systems on the Blu-rays would not necessarily be a violation of copyright laws under the DMCA, if the works are in the public domain, but a violation of other rights held in the works.

I should have left my other post in place instead of deleting it. I think I am still not clear what you are looking for here. I am on the tail end of a very long day/night at work, though, so maybe I will get it better in my head later. I should be able to provide you with cases to review if/when that happens.

 

[FlyingRon]

You will want to look at the Digital Millennium Copyright Act for the laws that limit this type of copying. http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

Actually, it does NOT prohibit the use of such devices if the underlying copying is not a violation of the copyright law. However, trafficking in such devices or technology regardless of whatever the intended use, is illegal.

Section 1201 reads as follows: No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

 

[TrustUser]

hi guys,

thanks for your replies.

does anyone have a specific court case about why a public domain video that was cleaned up and restored to hd quality was granted a copyright ?

or was disqualified for a copyright ?

if so, what were the reasons for either decision ?

people seem to have opinions, but i cant find one yet backed by any specific real-life case !!

 

[quincy]

hi guys,

thanks for your replies.

does anyone have a specific court case about why a public domain video that was cleaned up and restored to hd quality was granted a copyright ?

or was disqualified for a copyright ?

if so, what were the reasons for either decision ?

people seem to have opinions, but i cant find one yet backed by any specific real-life case !!

This area of copyright law is a bit of a confused mess, TrustUser. I had some "real-life" cases jotted down last night/this morning but they are at work and I will retrieve them for you later if they are as applicable as I thought they might be at the time.

That said, a work that is in the public domain can gain copyright protection in a number of ways - with, for example, the addition of an "introduction" to the work or illustrations or, as I mentioned earlier, through colorization of black and white material (this has been done with not only films but also with the black-and-white artwork on public domain postcards).

So I can make copies of a public domain tv show or film or whatever (as anyone can) and I can add a few copyright-protectable elements to the public domain tv show or film or whatever, and I can then market these altered public domain works to consumers - and no one will be allowed legally to copy these works without infringing on the copyright-protectable elements that I have added.

The major difficulty that people are having with any DVD or Blu-ray copying is that it is illegal to circumvent the DRM technologies or systems in order to make the copies. That said, FlyingRon correctly noted that the DMCA applies to copyrighted material and public domain materials with no copyright-protectable elements added are not copyright protected (and I tried to backtrack a bit in my last post to indicate that but apparently did not do a very good job of it ). But bypassing any DRM protections is still illegal.

 

[single317dad]

To clear things up a bit (I hope; speculation here might just muddy things further), what's usually done in these cases is that people download or otherwise obtain digital copies of "public domain" works -- I'll explain those quotes later -- and create a new/differently packaged copy that is sold to the public. Amazon is literally strewn from one end to the other with these items, both in the music and video categories. I've even purchased a couple myself to investigate the idea for my own purposes.

The producers of these discs (CD, DVD, Blu-ray, or otherwise) generally have a very loose definition of public domain works. Many copyrighted works, especially audio performances, are assumed to be "out of print" and therefore free to copy and disseminate simply because they haven't been republished in a new format recently and there's no obvious rights holder actively pursuing litigation against infringers. In my own research, I found many of my favorite old heavy metal albums and many Beatles live recordings had been republished in this manner and sold as "OUT OF PRINT" as though that protected the seller from repercussions.

That OP is here asking these questions shows me that s/he is taking these issues into account before making some rash and potentially costly decision. Kudos for that. I don't have a solid answer to the original question, but for my own purposes, I found the idea of repurposing others' work for my own benefit to be a difficult field to navigate and decided against the idea.

ETA: An excellent starting point is the following Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain_in_the_United_States#Case_law

Pay particular attention to the Case Law section linked, and especially to the sources below. Those will guide you into much discussion of case law on public domain works, their integration into newly copyrighted works, and how a court will address the issue. Good luck.

 

[FlyingRon]

"Out of print" is certainly not equate to the public domain, but older TV and radio shows are a different bag. Many of these were considered at the time they were produced to be rather ephemeral and back in those golden days, you had to specifically apply for and renew copyright and hence YES many of these have passed into the public domain.

There have been a couple of famous examples of this happening as well as another point to watch out for. The movies "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Rear Window" (coincidentally both starring Jimmy Stewart) were allowed to pass into the public domain. However a Supreme Court decision "Stewart v. Abend" decided that since the movie was a derivative work based on a novel that was till under copyright, the content was still protected even though the derivative work itself was not strictly under copyright.

So be careful if any of these TV shows which APPEAR to be in the public domain are based on stories from books or magazines that might still be protected by copyright.

 

[quincy]

"Out of print" is certainly not equate to the public domain, but older TV and radio shows are a different bag. Many of these were considered at the time they were produced to be rather ephemeral and back in those golden days, you had to specifically apply for and renew copyright and hence YES many of these have passed into the public domain.

There have been a couple of famous examples of this happening as well as another point to watch out for. The movies "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Rear Window" (coincidentally both starring Jimmy Stewart) were allowed to pass into the public domain. However a Supreme Court decision "Stewart v. Abend" decided that since the movie was a derivative work based on a novel that was till under copyright, the content was still protected even though the derivative work itself was not strictly under copyright.

So be careful if any of these TV shows which APPEAR to be in the public domain are based on stories from books or magazines that might still be protected by copyright.

Right. And the scripts of television shows can still be copyright-protected which leads to more legal minefields to consider for those who wish to venture into the reproduction of public domain works field.


("Steward v Abend" was one of the cases I had jotted down last night - in my sleep-deprived state - to review today to see if it applied to TrustUser's concerns)

 

[TrustUser]

thanks guys,

hi quincy,

yes please post anything that you think i might find helpful

to all,

i am in no way considering doing anything myself.

i am older, and love many of the older tv shows. some of them, such as the first 3 seasons of mrfd, have fallen into public domain. my only interest is to know what chances i have of seeing some of these shows again, in a dvd or blu-ray format.

so i am attempting to ascertain definitive court cases that have dealt with the issue of making hd transfers of public domain video.

i already know that there have been numerous times in which the hd transfers were made from pd.

for example, quincy mentions that if i were to add something to the transfer, that qualifies.

what would the thomas estate need to add to these first 3 seasons, in order for the blu-ray that they could conceivably put put, qualify for copyright protection ?

 

[quincy]

thanks guys,

hi quincy,

yes please post anything that you think i might find helpful

to all,

i am in no way considering doing anything myself.

i am older, and love many of the older tv shows. some of them, such as the first 3 seasons of mrfd, have fallen into public domain. my only interest is to know what chances i have of seeing some of these shows again, in a dvd or blu-ray format.

so i am attempting to ascertain definitive court cases that have dealt with the issue of making hd transfers of public domain video.

i already know that there have been numerous times in which the hd transfers were made from pd.

for example, quincy mentions that if i were to add something to the transfer, that qualifies.

what would the thomas estate need to add to these first 3 seasons, in order for the blu-ray that they could conceivably put put, qualify for copyright protection ?

Long ago I purchased video releases of "The Little Rascals" shows and, although the episodes themselves are all in the public domain, the particular versions I have are all copyright-protected by the addition of Leonard Maltin commentaries.

The Thomas estate could, likewise, control the copying of the public domain "Make Room for Daddy" episodes by only releasing the episodes on DVDs or Blu-rays that have technical protection measures in place and that include with the episodes copyright-protectable elements. Any unauthorized copying of the DVDs or Blu-rays, then, would be violating the DMCA and infringing the copyrights of the protectable elements.

The only time you are really going to find unauthorized copying a major legal risk, as a note, is if you are attempting to market copies to others. That is when the attorneys start to circle, with thoughts of lawsuits in their heads.