Question about hazing

[Ohiogal]

I am so angry, Carl I could spit! The thought of my child being abused just... Well you know you're a dad. They swore that the girls would not be humiliated or hurt. I cannot believe this mom and her behavior. I think a part of me wants to involve authorities just to be vengeful.

As difficult as it is not to, I don't think I should do anything in anger. I will be at the school first thing in the morning.

Call the police. Make a report. Definitely go to the school and speak to the principal, the superintendent and the school's general counsel.

 

[TigerD]

Failing a satisfactory resolution with the school or law enforcement, there is always media. Hazing stories tend to make the front page. Front page stories tend to motivate prosecutors.

DC

 

[csi7]

At the very least, I'd be looking to significantly bring positive awareness of bullying to the table. Where these types of hazing incidents happen, often there are many unreported incidents of bullying included in the process.

I hope it all works out for you, Antigone. I know I took on the school board, school superintendent, and it was only when I had the reporter get involved that suddenly the whole situation was worked out, wrapped up in a bow, and presented to the public with polished prose.

 

[CdwJava]

I have found that while the media can put some attention on an issue, the short line count and 30 second sound bites do not always provide all the details and often what the public is left with is a misperception of the facts.

Just today in our local paper I read two stories about crimes that occurred and the facts were all wrong.

And, remember, there MAY be another side to this tale ... a side that may not be so flattering for the victims in all of this. You never know what tales may be spun about their involvement. Sometimes the "victim" was also part bully, at least for a time ...

While I have not dealt with a sponsored "hazing" such as this, I have dealt with very similar allegations involving students and parents, and I have found in nearly all those cases the situation as it appeared at first was not the situation as it unfolded. Hence, my caution.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

My biggest concern is whether the girls hazed will now suffer PTSD from being betrayed, by friends.

 

[CourtClerk]

Hazing is a misdemeanor in CA. I'd call the police and make a report.

And I'm not saying it because I'm like this uber protective parent. Hazing in school in my day was so darn common it was ridiculous. Cheerleading, we were kidnapped and hazed. Fun stuff. My sorority. More hazing. Some not so fun, but hey, it was what it was. All that changed when a friend of mine DIED in a hazing incident and in that case, the women that killed her got OFF. People are getting irresponsible with it. Don't let the school sweep this under the rug. Get yourself to the police station, post haste.

 

[tranquility]

"Hazing" has and will happen throughout human history. There is always going to be a buy in to any group that thinks it special in any way. Get a sockpuppet identity and post here exactly how you would normally. Tell me how what used to be accepted isn't ravaged as idiotic. In teams, the hazing tends to be episodic with some ending where the person is accepted as one with the others when done.

Certainly, what the buy in can be can go from good natured joshing to criminality. One can just look at the news to find out profound problems from drinking that goes to far (Resulting in injury or death.) to what is alleged to be rape by objects.

Where does this fall in the spectrum? That's what Antigone* and her daughter have to talk about. Schools clearly hate this stuff because with all the teams, someone is eventually going to end up naked in a trash can or worse. If reported at the school, there will be actions taken. But, those actions may be no more than "counseling" those involved. The police, if they get involved, will investigate it and no one can guess what will happen until all the facts are known. As Carl said, however, all it takes is one being hazed to participate in the next girl to really change things. Be careful.

I do suspect that reporting it in any way will cause a schism in the daughter's participation and the rest of the group she's trying to join. It could be overcome if others agree things went too far or if she is the sweetest thing and bakes the best cookies or twirls the flag better than anyone else. But, there will still be a buy in. It just won't be "official" for lack of a better word.

Personally, I don't much like the paper bag thing but understand accepting it shows a level of trust. I REALLY, REALLY don't like any disrobing in front of others, let alone the opposite sex and who are probably not members of the group/team. But, I wasn't there and don't know the emotional and physical context.

 

[quincy]

Failing a satisfactory resolution with the school or law enforcement, there is always media. Hazing stories tend to make the front page. Front page stories tend to motivate prosecutors.

DC

The media will, more than likely, get involved as soon as the police do.

Despite Carl's claim that the media often gets it wrong, the media base most of their "crime" stories on what the police report. If the police get facts wrong, the media (if they are as careless as the police ) may report false facts, as well.

My "parent head" combined with my "media head" would make the captain's mom front page news and I would be pressing for prosecution of all involved in the hazing.

My "cooler head" would hesitate to get the media involved too soon (which would make me also reluctant to get the police involved too soon). Reputations can get damaged pretty quickly in situations like this, and there is very little that can be done to repair these reputations once that happens. When children are involved, it is vital that only what is known to be true is reported to the public.

Hopefully the school will be able to discern the facts quickly before rumors take over and additional kids (or their parents) are harmed.

 

[Antigone*]

Went to the school this morning. I was first told the administrators were all in meetings so I sat down and said that I would wait patiently to speak with the dean or the principal. Five minutes later the dean came and took the time to speak to me. They will be launching a full investigation beginning this morning. They did tell me that since captain mom is not an employee the most they could do with her is to disassociate her from any activities at the school. They will be involving the school sheriff but told me that I should file a separate report to deal with captain mom since they can't hold her accountable in any way.

I really hope this doesn't scar my daughter's high school experience.

thank you everyone, I'll keep you updated.

 

[Silverplum]

Went to the school this morning. I was first told the administrators were all in meetings so I sat down and said that I would wait patiently to speak with the dean or the principal. Five minutes later the dean came and took the time to speak to me. They will be launching a full investigation beginning this morning. They did tell me that since captain mom is not an employee the most they could do with her is to disassociate her from any activities at the school. They will be involving the school sheriff but told me that I should file a separate report to deal with captain mom since they can't hold her accountable in any way.

I really hope this doesn't scar my daughter's high school experience.

thank you everyone, I'll keep you updated.

I'm standing staunchly behind you, Mrs. Tiggins.

I'm really sorry to read of your daughter being hazed: it went much too far, IMO, and the adult behavior was shockingly poor.

 

[justalayman]

CdwJava;3101335]This section is often misunderstood. It requires the victim to believe that the person making the threat is capable of carrying out the threat of physical harm and that the act is imminent. Merely making a threat is not going to qualify.

all I went by was the letter of the law.

Any person who willfully threatens to commit a crime which will result in death or great bodily injury to another person, with the specific intent that the statement, made verbally, in writing, or by means of an electronic communication device, is to be taken as a threat, even if there is no intent of actually carrying it out, which, on its face and under the circumstances in which it is made, is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific as to convey to the person threatened, a gravity of purpose and an immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate family's safety, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.

For the purposes of this section, "immediate family" means any spouse, whether by marriage or not, parent, child, any person related by consanguinity or affinity within the second degree, or any other person who regularly resides in the household, or who, within the prior six months, regularly resided in the household.

"Electronic communication device" includes, but is not limited to, telephones, cellular telephones, computers, video recorders, fax machines, or pagers. "Electronic communication" has the same meaning as the term defined in Subsection 12 of Section 2510 of Title 18 of the United States Code.

I don't see how a threat transmitted via writing or fax machine could be considered imminent ...

but with that; yes, I do understand a DA is going to prosecute a charge as they read it and if that is the typical take out there, then it is what it is. Beyond that, it would require some serious threats to make that charge.

And, if the cops wanted to be really devious, they could consider all the kids and some/all of the adults to be co-conspirators and argue that this was a conspiracy to commit 236 or 242 and then charge everyone with PC 182 and charge it as a felony. It might be a tough sell to argue that they pre-planned pushing the newbies around, but, maybe.

I'm thinking that wouldn't be that hard of a sell, especially since the boys did not go with the girls but they were at the scene of the incident. Sure sounds pre-planned to me.

Ultimately, I still think this is something that might be best handled by the school. Depending on the facts as they come out in the calm light of day, police intervention and the court system may not be called for. But, if it is as bad as it sounds, then just

As I said before, other than the undressing issue and anything that might have flowed from that situation, I agree.

 

[justalayman]

Went to the school this morning. I was first told the administrators were all in meetings so I sat down and said that I would wait patiently to speak with the dean or the principal. Five minutes later the dean came and took the time to speak to me. They will be launching a full investigation beginning this morning. They did tell me that since captain mom is not an employee the most they could do with her is to disassociate her from any activities at the school. They will be involving the school sheriff but told me that I should file a separate report to deal with captain mom since they can't hold her accountable in any way.

I really hope this doesn't scar my daughter's high school experience.

thank you everyone, I'll keep you updated.

I think a well grounded parent can do a lot to prevent any scars. Obviously from this side of the screen, it is impossible to see really what happened and how the kids are reacting but sometimes making a huge issue out of something can cause what was a minor mental injury into something much worse. Not saying to ignore a valid issue but be cautious as the ensuing investigation and actions might cause a bigger problem for your child than being a touch less aggressive in dealing with this.

I think the only thing I would have done a bit differently is have all the parents that are incensed by the issue go as a group. Possibly even having had scheduled some time with the administration.

 

[CdwJava]

The media will, more than likely, get involved as soon as the police do.

Despite Carl's claim that the media often gets it wrong, the media base most of their "crime" stories on what the police report. If the police get facts wrong, the media (if they are as careless as the police ) may report false facts, as well.

Out here, a lot of the media tend to get their initial stories from the people that GIVE them the info - that is usually bystanders, witnesses, or people with a perspective on the matter and not always the police. The police often give very limited info due to state law and local polices limiting what they can or should supply. Hence the reason many reporters have to get the info from other places.

And, yes, sometimes the info is bad because the police source got it wrong. My Chief regularly gets the facts skewed when he talks to the media without reviewing all the details first, and that makes us look bad when it comes to light that the facts were not as I related them at the time.

My "parent head" combined with my "media head" would make the captain's mom front page news and I would be pressing for prosecution of all involved in the hazing.

But, that might be premature ... as we do not really know for sure WHAT happened.

My "cooler head" would hesitate to get the media involved too soon (which would make me also reluctant to get the police involved too soon). Reputations can get damaged pretty quickly in situations like this, and there is very little that can be done to repair these reputations once that happens. When children are involved, it is vital that only what is known to be true is reported to the public.

Agreed, and why I am preaching caution here. Once the media bell is rung, it cannot be unrung. The accusations might be headlines above the fold... the end result on any investigation many months down the road might be a couple of lines on page 23.

Hopefully the school will be able to discern the facts quickly before rumors take over and additional kids (or their parents) are harmed.

Agreed.

 

[CdwJava]

all I went by was the letter of the law.

I don't see how a threat transmitted via writing or fax machine could be considered imminent ...

It can be. And, in general, it has to be. That imminence is also mentioned in the statute.

Not only must we concern ourselves with what is written in the statute, but also how it has been defined and refined by case law. The DA has a further restriction by having to prove the elements in CalCrim (jury instructions) and these also require that the threat convey an unconditional and believable threat of great bodily harm or death as well as be "immediate, unconditional, and specific" with the "serious intention and the immediate prospect that the threat would be carried out."

I'm thinking that wouldn't be that hard of a sell, especially since the boys did not go with the girls but they were at the scene of the incident. Sure sounds pre-planned to me.

A pre-planned meeting, perhaps - but that is perfectly lawful. Proving that they conspired to assault the girls? Doubtful. That decision was likely made on the spot.

Additionally, PC 245.6 is possible here. It is another misdemeanor battery section but also requires that the hazing be shown to be directly related to the organization. Probably not a hard case to make, but from what I have seen there are complications in these matters that tend to make them difficult to prosecute. But, if the facts are as they have been laid out, it is another possibility in a possible cavalcade of misdemeanor offenses that might be laid. Unfortunately, most of the brunt will fall onto the shoulders of classmates, and not necessarily any moms involved.

 

[7654]

Here's a clue (since you've obviously all been out of high school for toooo long): if there has been a proven case of hazing at a school. That means that the school has a culture of hazing throughout it.
What did you think would happen to your freshman daughter at 3am driving around with people you don't know who had "kidnapped" her in relation to a 'group' event near the start of the school year? Breakfast? What, because they 'promised'?

I really hope this doesn't scar my daughter's high school experience

You could tell her that high school is just 4 years of her life, life really begins after high school, and it's not actually the most important thing in the world to go through humiliating situations to be 'part of something' or to be 'cool'. She could just be herself.

Here's another clue: Parents think that a full schedule of extracurricular high school activities keep kids out of trouble.
Our color guard drink like fish. And do humiliating things.

Tell her it is possible to be 'accepted' at school while also being yourself.
Although admin have thought I'm the campus drug dealer probably in part because I've never done anything humiliating but I'm still friends with a wide range of people (OMG). So there is still a downside.

I know what I know from older brothers who after being out of high school for years told me the "high school experience" is a load of crap, tolerate highschool, just do the things YOU want to do, and the actual cool stuff comes later.

Jus sayin.

I know this isn't legal advice. But you guys also often don't give legal advice when other people ask questions.