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reasonable visitation

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Graycat

Junior Member
wisconsin

My husbands court order for visitation reads "reasonable visitation with reasonable notice"
They agreed upon an EOW and some holidays schedule in 1997 and it worked with little to no conflict untill the middle of 2004.The conflict has progressed from, his visits being cancelled with lame excuses, short notice, no make up time, to no call no shows. This has recently been mixed with very blatant signs of PAS.
He delivered a document to the mom in December of 2005, detailing their agreed upon visitation schedule, his intent to continue it, and his request that his parenting time not be interfered with. This document was not filed with the court.
I realize he should have never settled for the "reasonable visitation" and he should have had it modified a long time ago. He is now ready to pursue this in court so here are his questions.

1) Should he start with an order to show cause for the cancelled visits?
2) Should he start with a request for modification of the original order?
3) Should he do both?
4) Should he address the PAS issues while in either of these proceedings,
or would that be a different issue, (and possibly a different thread?)

Thank you!What is the name of your state?
 


angiesmom

Member
I would most definately ask for a modification. And make sure it is detailed about when his visits are to occur. In the meantime, keep detailed notes (time, place, what happened) about every contact he has with ex or kids so that he can show in court that he is being denied his visitation for lame excuses, etc.

Stay tuned for more advice from the experts....
 

ceara19

Senior Member
Graycat said:
wisconsin

My husbands court order for visitation reads "reasonable visitation with reasonable notice"
They agreed upon an EOW and some holidays schedule in 1997 and it worked with little to no conflict untill the middle of 2004.The conflict has progressed from, his visits being cancelled with lame excuses, short notice, no make up time, to no call no shows. This has recently been mixed with very blatant signs of PAS.
He delivered a document to the mom in December of 2005, detailing their agreed upon visitation schedule, his intent to continue it, and his request that his parenting time not be interfered with. This document was not filed with the court.
I realize he should have never settled for the "reasonable visitation" and he should have had it modified a long time ago. He is now ready to pursue this in court so here are his questions.

1) Should he start with an order to show cause for the cancelled visits?
No
2) Should he start with a request for modification of the original order?
Yes
3) Should he do both?
No
4) Should he address the PAS issues while in either of these proceedings,
or would that be a different issue, (and possibly a different thread?)
He could, but it would most likely be a waste of time, money and effort. PAS is not a widely accepted "syndrome". The modification will fix the visitation problems and dad being involved with the children once again may very well resolve the PAS issue. It's easy to get your children to believe lies about the other parent if that parent isn't around to defend themselves. Adding a stipulation that prevents either parent from making derogatory remarks about the other in front of the children would be a good idea. Trying to prove PAS can turn what should be a simple modification to clarify the existing order into an all out legal battle.
 

angiesmom

Member
Just an idea... my ex and I don't have ordered visitation, but this is how we do things... For visits in the month of July, he gives me a list of days he would like with times on June 15th. Then I can look it over and ask for any changes to be made. It works quite nicely, as it give us both plenty of notice to make arrangements, ect. Something like this might help you with the reasonable notice part.
 

GrowUp!

Senior Member
angiesmom said:
Just an idea... my ex and I don't have ordered visitation, but this is how we do things... For visits in the month of July, he gives me a list of days he would like with times on June 15th. Then I can look it over and ask for any changes to be made. It works quite nicely, as it give us both plenty of notice to make arrangements, ect. Something like this might help you with the reasonable notice part.
And for those with actual court orders (as it should be), the primary residential parent doesn't get to "look over and make changes" to the other parents' time with their children.

When there is a court order and unless the child is on bedrest ordered by a doctor, the primary residential parent is NOT allowed to cancel the other parents' time with the children. How would the residential parent like it if the obligor called to "cancel" that months' child support payment.

Yep...didn't think so.

So, quite frankly, you're advice is irrelevant.

OP...what needs to be done is a letter sent certified w/return reciept AND via first class regular mail stating when he WILL exercise his parenting time and if he is further refused any parenting time for any reason, a Motion to show cause for contempt will be immediately filed with the court of jurisdiction.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
ceara19 said:
He could, but it would most likely be a waste of time, money and effort. PAS is not a widely accepted "syndrome". The modification will fix the visitation problems and dad being involved with the children once again may very well resolve the PAS issue. It's easy to get your children to believe lies about the other parent if that parent isn't around to defend themselves. Adding a stipulation that prevents either parent from making derogatory remarks about the other in front of the children would be a good idea. Trying to prove PAS can turn what should be a simple modification to clarify the existing order into an all out legal battle.
I agree with this advice. Also, if his child is a teenager, or close to being a teenager, what he is perceiving as PAS, may actually be due to the child's desire to be involved in their own social activities.

Therefore, not only would I recommend filing for a motion to modify, and get a set schedule in place, but I would also urge him to remember that teenagers spend alot of their time with their friends, and would encourage him to cooperate with that during his parenting time.
 

stealth2

Under the Radar Member
GrowUp! said:
OP...what needs to be done is a letter sent certified w/return reciept AND via first class regular mail stating when he WILL exercise his parenting time and if he is further refused any parenting time for any reason, a Motion to show cause for contempt will be immediately filed with the court of jurisdiction.
Uuuh, GU - without a COURT ORDERED schedule and only "reasonable visitation", contempt is virtually impossible to prove. What he needs to do is file for a modification to actually set a schedule. Contempt is a waste of time in this situation.
 

Halls

Member
Pretty much the same advice as Ceara and ldij, but thought I would give my own opinion.

1) Should he start with an order to show cause for the cancelled visits?

No, because he had liberal visitation, nothing set in stone, therefore no case to file contempt.
2) Should he start with a request for modification of the original order?

Yes
3) Should he do both?

No
4) Should he address the PAS issues while in either of these proceedings,
or would that be a different issue, (and possibly a different thread?)

Absolutely no. I don't believe in parental alienation syndrome myself. I believe that some parents alienate and some don't, but a syndrome? Please, how stupid! However, bringing this up in court will only make your hubby look bad as courts don't accept this diagnosis of PAS(because they think it is stupid as well and the guy who invented it killed himself). I also agree with what ldij said about the kids if they are teens than it is harder to get kids come to visit because of they tend to want to go and do things with their friends. Courts are also very much aware of this and expect both parents to allow kids to live a normal social life as well.

Anyhow, I think because the kids may be in their teens or close to it chances of getting a more stable visitation schedule may not happen in court. It has been a long time that this schedule has gone on and court stick to the status quo in most cases. These kids are older and to make demands on them at this late stage in the game is going to be a big factor to the judge. But I think your hubby should still try and hopefully in the end he will get to spend more time with his kids.
 

angiesmom

Member
stealth2 said:
Uuuh, GU - without a COURT ORDERED schedule and only "reasonable visitation", contempt is virtually impossible to prove. What he needs to do is file for a modification to actually set a schedule. Contempt is a waste of time in this situation.
Thats what I was trying to say with my post about submitting a schedule to the CP. If NCP could bring that into court and say that this is what he asked for and also show what he ended up getting for visitation, while it may not prove contempt, at least the judge could take it into consideration and hopefully award the NCP more liberal visitation.
 

weenor

Senior Member
angiesmom said:
Thats what I was trying to say with my post about submitting a schedule to the CP. If NCP could bring that into court and say that this is what he asked for and also show what he ended up getting for visitation, while it may not prove contempt, at least the judge could take it into consideration and hopefully award the NCP more liberal visitation.

This would have little or no bearing on the judge's decision because op's hubby was dumb enough to sign that agreement and slow about getting back to court to get it changed. Its his word against hers.
 

Graycat

Junior Member
Thank you all for your responses. he will file for a modification, and also ask for a stipulation that neither parent make derogatory remarks about the other in front of the children. They are teens, and we do live close enough that they don't have to miss that important dance or party while they are at Dads. Their friends have been welcome here for overnights as well. He understands that their friends are most important to them right now. It is also very important that they have both parents involved at this delicate age.

One more question. Would it be wise to ask for the same EOW schedule they had agreed upon? Should he ask for more in case he has to settle for less?
 

ceara19

Senior Member
Graycat said:
Thank you all for your responses. he will file for a modification, and also ask for a stipulation that neither parent make derogatory remarks about the other in front of the children. They are teens, and we do live close enough that they don't have to miss that important dance or party while they are at Dads. Their friends have been welcome here for overnights as well. He understands that their friends are most important to them right now. It is also very important that they have both parents involved at this delicate age.

One more question. Would it be wise to ask for the same EOW schedule they had agreed upon? Should he ask for more in case he has to settle for less?
I would ask for a little more then just EOW. It would be reasonable for him to ask for EOW, one night each week, alternate holidays and 4-6 weeks in the summer.
 

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