Rediculous amount of spousal support

[Cross Hair]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?Ohio

I have been to two attorney's and both come up with close to the same amount of spousal support I "could" have to pay my ex once things are settled. I will give some quick background, let me know what you think.

Twenty year marriage, two kids both at home, (17 and 15). My earnings are $109,000 a year and she has always worked part time earning around $12,000 a year. She has elected to move out of the family home leaving the kids with me. We have no debt. She claims to be trying to find a full time job but hasn't yet. No violence, alcoholism, or drug use on either of our parts. She initiated divorce because she was just unhappy with our marriage.

Both attorney's (and hers) come up with around $3,400 a month spousal support! For nearly seven years ! I don't see how I could support two kids and myself and stay in our home with whats left from my income. Yes child support still needs to be deducted from that amount but because of her low earnings that's only a couple hundred a month. With her equity in the house and other things she will walk away with over $290,000 in cash and assetts and I am still suppose to pay her support for seven years, how is that fair ?
With the interest I will pay on a morgtage over the next 15 years my net worth will decrease by $400,000, plus whatever I have to pay in spousal support.

Is this really how things may end up ? Will a judge look at these numbers and tell her she's nuts? I have always taken care of the finances and I sat her down and went over everything it cost to run our house for a year. She said she would be willing to come down "some" on the support but I need to understand that she will have the same bills I have when she gets a new house.(Except she won't have any kids to support)

Is this typical ?

Thanks

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?Ohio

I have been to two attorney's and both come up with close to the same amount of spousal support I "could" have to pay my ex once things are settled. I will give some quick background, let me know what you think.

Twenty year marriage, two kids both at home, (17 and 15). My earnings are $109,000 a year and she has always worked part time earning around $12,000 a year. She has elected to move out of the family home leaving the kids with me. We have no debt. She claims to be trying to find a full time job but hasn't yet. No violence, alcoholism, or drug use on either of our parts. She initiated divorce because she was just unhappy with our marriage.

Both attorney's (and hers) come up with around $3,400 a month spousal support! For nearly seven years ! I don't see how I could support two kids and myself and stay in our home with whats left from my income. Yes child support still needs to be deducted from that amount but because of her low earnings that's only a couple hundred a month. With her equity in the house and other things she will walk away with over $290,000 in cash and assetts and I am still suppose to pay her support for seven years, how is that fair ?
With the interest I will pay on a morgtage over the next 15 years my net worth will decrease by $400,000, plus whatever I have to pay in spousal support.

Is this really how things may end up ? Will a judge look at these numbers and tell her she's nuts? I have always taken care of the finances and I sat her down and went over everything it cost to run our house for a year. She said she would be willing to come down "some" on the support but I need to understand that she will have the same bills I have when she gets a new house.(Except she won't have any kids to support)

Is this typical ?

Thanks

Child support will be also based on the spousal support amount. Spousal support is also tax deductible to you and taxable income to her. That is worst case scenario. And no she may not be told she is nuts.

 

[Bali Hai]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?Ohio

I have been to two attorney's and both come up with close to the same amount of spousal support I "could" have to pay my ex once things are settled. I will give some quick background, let me know what you think.

Twenty year marriage, two kids both at home, (17 and 15). My earnings are $109,000 a year and she has always worked part time earning around $12,000 a year. She has elected to move out of the family home leaving the kids with me. We have no debt. She claims to be trying to find a full time job but hasn't yet. No violence, alcoholism, or drug use on either of our parts. She initiated divorce because she was just unhappy with our marriage.

Both attorney's (and hers) come up with around $3,400 a month spousal support! For nearly seven years ! I don't see how I could support two kids and myself and stay in our home with whats left from my income. Yes child support still needs to be deducted from that amount but because of her low earnings that's only a couple hundred a month. With her equity in the house and other things she will walk away with over $290,000 in cash and assetts and I am still suppose to pay her support for seven years, how is that fair ?
With the interest I will pay on a morgtage over the next 15 years my net worth will decrease by $400,000, plus whatever I have to pay in spousal support.

Is this really how things may end up ? Will a judge look at these numbers and tell her she's nuts? I have always taken care of the finances and I sat her down and went over everything it cost to run our house for a year. She said she would be willing to come down "some" on the support but I need to understand that she will have the same bills I have when she gets a new house.(Except she won't have any kids to support)

Is this typical ?

Thanks

Sure it's typical for them to demand that much money. It doesn't mean they'll get it though.

You have to remember that you are responsible for holding her back from a glamorous career because you married her 20 years ago.

She only makes $12k per year and that's your fault also.

Now don't you feel bad that you questioned having to give her half your paycheck for seven years???

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?Ohio

I have been to two attorney's and both come up with close to the same amount of spousal support I "could" have to pay my ex once things are settled. I will give some quick background, let me know what you think.

Twenty year marriage, two kids both at home, (17 and 15). My earnings are $109,000 a year and she has always worked part time earning around $12,000 a year. She has elected to move out of the family home leaving the kids with me. We have no debt. She claims to be trying to find a full time job but hasn't yet. No violence, alcoholism, or drug use on either of our parts. She initiated divorce because she was just unhappy with our marriage.

Both attorney's (and hers) come up with around $3,400 a month spousal support! For nearly seven years ! I don't see how I could support two kids and myself and stay in our home with whats left from my income. Yes child support still needs to be deducted from that amount but because of her low earnings that's only a couple hundred a month. With her equity in the house and other things she will walk away with over $290,000 in cash and assetts and I am still suppose to pay her support for seven years, how is that fair ?
With the interest I will pay on a morgtage over the next 15 years my net worth will decrease by $400,000, plus whatever I have to pay in spousal support.

Is this really how things may end up ? Will a judge look at these numbers and tell her she's nuts? I have always taken care of the finances and I sat her down and went over everything it cost to run our house for a year. She said she would be willing to come down "some" on the support but I need to understand that she will have the same bills I have when she gets a new house.(Except she won't have any kids to support)

Is this typical ?

Thanks

Assuming that you are paid every other week, at 109k that makes your average monthly gross as 8384.00, with two months with an extra paycheck. Therefore the amount that they are stating is possible, could be 40% of your gross most months. I agree that does seem high, but they are operating on a worst case scenario. Also, its not uncommon to have to downsize after divorce, and many families live quite well on almost 5k a month gross income, plus two extra paychecks a year. You are probably going to need to downsize.

Please keep in mind the following:

As head of household, with your current income, and two children, if you were not paying any alimony your federal tax burden would be as follows (example only using the standard deduction)

109,000 - 8000 standard deduction - 10500 for 3 personal exemptions equals 90500 in taxable income and results in 17687 in tax, minus one child tax credit (for the youngest) which results in a tax liability of 16687.

Now, take those same results, but deduct 40800 from your taxable income (12 x 3400) to make your taxable income 49700. Tax on that would be 7487.00 minus the same child tax credit makes it 6487.00 That does not include state tax either. Lets assume state tax is 5% making the respective numbers 4525 and 2485.

Therefore your tax savings are a total of 12240.00 between federal and state, therefore that spousal support really only costs you 28560.00 rather than 40800.00. Now, that's not much comfort, but its a reality that you need to know. If you don't have to pay spousal support, you are going to be paying 12240.00 more in tax. Even if you itemize, the tax savings are going to remain roughly the same.

You should also argue that child support should be calculated based on her total income, which would include your alimony. That makes her income 52800.00 for the year. That would make her child support closer to 850.00 a month for two children. That adds up to 10200 per year, which would also be an offset to the spousal support that you would be paying. That changes your net out of pocket cost of the spousal support to closer to 18360.00 for the year, or about 1530.00 a month, which is a less than half of the actual spousal support amount of 3400.00. That is because both the child support cost and the tax burden on the spousal support, shifts to her rather than you.

Now, naturally all of these figures will change based on how much spousal support ends up getting ordered/agreed upon, but the general principal is the same.

Therefore whatever spousal support amount you agree to, remember to work through the numbers to find out what its actually net effect will be on you.

 

[Bali Hai]

Assuming that you are paid every other week, at 109k that makes your average monthly gross as 8384.00, with two months with an extra paycheck. Therefore the amount that they are stating is possible, could be 40% of your gross most months. I agree that does seem high, but they are operating on a worst case scenario. Also, its not uncommon to have to downsize after divorce, and many families live quite well on almost 5k a month gross income, plus two extra paychecks a year. You are probably going to need to downsize.

Why should he need to downsize because his irresponsilbe wife deserted him AND her kids. If I had a b!tch dog that did that, I'd shoot her!!

Please keep in mind the following:

As head of household, with your current income, and two children, if you were not paying any alimony your federal tax burden would be as follows (example only using the standard deduction)

109,000 - 8000 standard deduction - 10500 for 3 personal exemptions equals 90500 in taxable income and results in 17687 in tax, minus one child tax credit (for the youngest) which results in a tax liability of 16687.

Now, take those same results, but deduct 40800 from your taxable income (12 x 3400) to make your taxable income 49700. Tax on that would be 7487.00 minus the same child tax credit makes it 6487.00 That does not include state tax either. Lets assume state tax is 5% making the respective numbers 4525 and 2485.

Therefore your tax savings are a total of 12240.00 between federal and state, therefore that spousal support really only costs you 28560.00 rather than 40800.00. Now, that's not much comfort, but its a reality that you need to know. If you don't have to pay spousal support, you are going to be paying 12240.00 more in tax. Even if you itemize, the tax savings are going to remain roughly the same.

You should also argue that child support should be calculated based on her total income, which would include your alimony. That makes her income 52800.00 for the year. That would make her child support closer to 850.00 a month for two children. That adds up to 10200 per year, which would also be an offset to the spousal support that you would be paying. That changes your net out of pocket cost of the spousal support to closer to 18360.00 for the year, or about 1530.00 a month, which is a less than half of the actual spousal support amount of 3400.00. That is because both the child support cost and the tax burden on the spousal support, shifts to her rather than you.

Now, naturally all of these figures will change based on how much spousal support ends up getting ordered/agreed upon, but the general principal is the same.

Therefore whatever spousal support amount you agree to, remember to work through the numbers to find out what its actually net effect will be on you.

Not sure what your getting at here, other than you're waving a carrot? There is a time period during the year where OP gets paid and doesn't have to use any of that money to pay alimony? Horsecrap!!

Assume that OP is paid 24 times per year or 12 times per year or once per week. He would still have to pay the same money which results in almost half his income!!

I'll pay the tax on the 40 grand and keep what's left over!!

 

[Cross Hair]

I knew there would be some tax cosiderations that would benefit (if you want to look at the bright side) me and hurt her. Her attorney suggested we each claim one kid as a deduction as to help her tax situation. I laughed out loud, that isn't going to happen.

I get 26 pays per year. Your calculations were accurite except for some deductions. $113.00 per pay toward health insurance and $184.00 per pay deposited into my Health Savings Account, I have a $3000.00 / $6000.00 deductible per year. I also max out my
401K, which is an elective expense that I will need to cut back on. 401K lost earnings is something I hadn't factored into the total lost net worth.

The tax burden on spousal support will worry her, she is not a planner or saver so I think I can use that to my advantage. I just need to massage the numbers and scare her into thinking she couldn't afford the tax bill every year.

Thanks for the help

 

[Bali Hai]

I knew there would be some tax cosiderations that would benefit (if you want to look at the bright side) me and hurt her. Her attorney suggested we each claim one kid as a deduction as to help her tax situation. I laughed out loud, that isn't going to happen.

I get 26 pays per year. Your calculations were accurite except for some deductions. $113.00 per pay toward health insurance and $184.00 per pay deposited into my Health Savings Account, I have a $3000.00 / $6000.00 deductible per year. I also max out my
401K, which is an elective expense that I will need to cut back on. 401K lost earnings is something I hadn't factored into the total lost net worth.

The tax burden on spousal support will worry her, she is not a planner or saver so I think I can use that to my advantage. I just need to massage the numbers and scare her into thinking she couldn't afford the tax bill every year.

Thanks for the help

She might be stupid but her attorney isn't.

What makes you think she can't afford the tax burden on FREE money?? If she were to get another job EARNING $52k per year the tax liability and child support would be the same.

The tax considerations help you and hurt her??? Alimony is income to her as if she EARNED the income, the tax is exactly the same. There is no more tax on alimony than if she EARNED the money.

Wise up and start thinking straight!!

 

[LdiJ]

I knew there would be some tax cosiderations that would benefit (if you want to look at the bright side) me and hurt her. Her attorney suggested we each claim one kid as a deduction as to help her tax situation. I laughed out loud, that isn't going to happen.

I get 26 pays per year. Your calculations were accurite except for some deductions. $113.00 per pay toward health insurance and $184.00 per pay deposited into my Health Savings Account, I have a $3000.00 / $6000.00 deductible per year. I also max out my
401K, which is an elective expense that I will need to cut back on. 401K lost earnings is something I hadn't factored into the total lost net worth.

The tax burden on spousal support will worry her, she is not a planner or saver so I think I can use that to my advantage. I just need to massage the numbers and scare her into thinking she couldn't afford the tax bill every year.

Thanks for the help

I have got to agree with Bali about the fact that if she earned that much money she would have the same tax burden as if she receives it in alimony/spousal support. The only difference is that she would have withholding so she wouldn't have to save or plan for the taxes.

If you get her child support calculated on her total income (including the alimony) its pretty much guaranteed that the judge would let her claim one of the children. Just make sure she gets the older one, who is no longer eligible for the child tax credit, and you keep the younger one.

I think that you are absolutely going to be stuck with some alimony for the 7 years. I think that is inevitable with the length of your marriage and the disparity in incomes. The question is how much, and what will its actual burden be on you?

That was my main point. You need to know for certain what your net economic effect is going to be. You also have to understand, that when you divorce, your net worth automatically cuts in half. Most people do have to do some downsizing as well. You will probably need to do some too.

 

[Ohiogal]

I have got to agree with Bali about the fact that if she earned that much money she would have the same tax burden as if she receives it in alimony/spousal support. The only difference is that she would have withholding so she wouldn't have to save or plan for the taxes.

If you get her child support calculated on her total income (including the alimony) its pretty much guaranteed that the judge would let her claim one of the children. Just make sure she gets the older one, who is no longer eligible for the child tax credit, and you keep the younger one.
I think that you are absolutely going to be stuck with some alimony for the 7 years. I think that is inevitable with the length of your marriage and the disparity in incomes. The question is how much, and what will its actual burden be on you?

That was my main point. You need to know for certain what your net economic effect is going to be. You also have to understand, that when you divorce, your net worth automatically cuts in half. Most people do have to do some downsizing as well. You will probably need to do some too.

Re the bolded: Not quite. The way a judge would make it is that mom would have to be substantially current on her child support (not in arrears) in order to claim a child IF a judge gave mom a tax deduction. Some judges in Ohio do not do that at all. Also, the standard is if there are two children and each claims one of the children after the child ages out, the deduction would then alternate.

 

[Tayla]

Pardon the ignorance here, as I was under the impression that the PRIMARY CUSTODIAL PARENT would have to voluntarily consent to the non custodial parent to get the child tax exemption. NOT a judge making that decision. Alimony is different and separate in rulings.

Perhaps this site does bring some eye opening matters to surface , just never knew a state/local judge could have more power then the irs guidelines for tax exemption and claims.
Interesting.

To the OP- Sometimes its best not to discuss your option with your soon to be wagering party. Laying your cards out to early may harm the outcome. Create a win win, where you win twice

 

[Ohiogal]

Pardon the ignorance here, as I was under the impression that the PRIMARY CUSTODIAL PARENT would have to voluntarily consent to the non custodial parent to get the child tax exemption. NOT a judge making that decision. Alimony is different and separate in rulings.

Perhaps this site does bring some eye opening matters to surface , just never knew a state/local judge could have more power then the irs guidelines for tax exemption and claims.
Interesting.

To the OP- Sometimes its best not to discuss your option with your soon to be wagering party. Laying your cards out to early may harm the outcome. Create a win win, where you win twice

WRONG. A judge can make that decision and hold someone in contempt if they do not sign the proper forms giving the NCP the right to claim the child. This is why you have been told not to respond to things before. Because you are ignorant to many legal rulings.

 

[Cross Hair]

After many hours of negotiating here is what my wife says she will agree to.

Her list of material possesions has a greater value than mine so to balance that she will agree to "only" take 40% of my 401K.

50% of all savings and checking accounts

I buy out her half of the house

I agree to let her leave her horses at our house until Jan., 09 / she provides care
(I really don't want her coming over every day but I am allowing this because one
of the horses is my daughters and the kids will still be able to see her daily if only for
a few minutes, I hope it makes it eaiser for them)

She pays 0 dollars toward child support / I claim both kids on taxes

She receives $1200.00 month spousal support for five years

Those are the big ticket items, I won't say I'm happy about it but it could be worse.

One concern I have is if the court will allow us to not include any child support, will this be O.K. ?

What do you folks think about the settlement ?

Thank you for any help

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

When I divorced, I had child support "reserved." That meant that I had enough income so that I would NOT be on welfare/ TANF/ food stamps if I did NOT receive the child support. My X also asked for alimony, but that was denied (I was very lucky.) The difference in mine was that we had the same education, had been employed at the same employer for somewhat similar income and he was CANNED.

If you are going to go without child support, to go ahead and get it in the future, there has to be a "substantial" change. My GF handled hers a bit different. She also had a payout of equity from the house. Her X was given a percentage break on the support in exchange for not receiving all the payout at one time. For example, he was to pay $800/month in support. He paid $400/month; she received credit for $400 for the equity that he was to be paid.

 

[Bali Hai]

After many hours of negotiating here is what my wife says she will agree to.

Her list of material possesions has a greater value than mine so to balance that she will agree to "only" take 40% of my 401K.

50% of all savings and checking accounts

I buy out her half of the house

I agree to let her leave her horses at our house until Jan., 09 / she provides care
(I really don't want her coming over every day but I am allowing this because one
of the horses is my daughters and the kids will still be able to see her daily if only for
a few minutes, I hope it makes it eaiser for them)

She pays 0 dollars toward child support / I claim both kids on taxes

She receives $1200.00 month spousal support for five years

Those are the big ticket items, I won't say I'm happy about it but it could be worse.

One concern I have is if the court will allow us to not include any child support, will this be O.K. ?

What do you folks think about the settlement ?

Thank you for any help

My advice:

Get this agreement signed, sealed and delivered to the judge for signature in a gold envelope ASAP!!

 

[LdiJ]

After many hours of negotiating here is what my wife says she will agree to.

Her list of material possesions has a greater value than mine so to balance that she will agree to "only" take 40% of my 401K.

50% of all savings and checking accounts

I buy out her half of the house

I agree to let her leave her horses at our house until Jan., 09 / she provides care
(I really don't want her coming over every day but I am allowing this because one
of the horses is my daughters and the kids will still be able to see her daily if only for
a few minutes, I hope it makes it eaiser for them)

She pays 0 dollars toward child support / I claim both kids on taxes

She receives $1200.00 month spousal support for five years

Those are the big ticket items, I won't say I'm happy about it but it could be worse.

One concern I have is if the court will allow us to not include any child support, will this be O.K. ?

What do you folks think about the settlement ?

Thank you for any help

Some judges won't go for zero child support...some will. Maybe it would be better to say that child support is "reserved" as CJ mentioned.

Otherwise, its a heck of a lot better than what you were looking at in the begining,