Roommates; one who is relative of owner

[patdenn]

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Arizona

I bought a condo for my daughter to live in while attending college here in Arizona. She has a roommate and there is a signed written month to month rental agreement between myself(landlord) and the roommate(tenant).

The roommate has her own bedroom and full bathroom, pays one half of the electric bill and $20 towards the telephone. I pay for internet access, cable tv and association dues which includes water and garbage. I furnished the entire condo, NOT including the roommate's bedroom, and the roommate has full access to the kitchen and living room, tv, washer & dryer, all kitchen appliances, dishes, pots, etc.

According to the rental agreement the roommate is allowed overnight guests two days per month.

My daughter of course does not have to have a rental agreement with me, I pay all of her bills, and she has no restrictions with me as far as over night guests.

I didn't put anything in the roommate's rental agreement about what my daughter can or can not do and now I'm wondering if I should have put a clause in there about my daughter's overnight guests, in particular, me, and my daughter's boyfriend.

My specific concern, and question for this forum, is this:

1- Should I have informed the roommate that my daughter doesn't have an overnight guest limit concerning her boyfriend or her immediate family members?

2- I hope to be able to visit my daughter from time to time, maybe a weekend a month. I just assumed that I would stay at the condo as I have in the past before the roommate moved in. Now that the roommate is there, I find myself getting a hotel when I visit because I feel that it may not be right to stay at the condo since I didn't put anything in the rental agreement about this. Do I have a right to stay there? And if so, can I just add a clause about it to the rental agreement?

3- Should I decrease what the roommate pays for electric?

 

[JETX]

"Should I have informed the roommate that my daughter doesn't have an overnight guest limit concerning her boyfriend or her immediate family members?"
*** Though there isn't a legal requirement to do so, it would be prudent for you to note the 'differences' in roommate status to prevent misunderstandings and potential problems.

"I hope to be able to visit my daughter from time to time, maybe a weekend a month. I just assumed that I would stay at the condo as I have in the past before the roommate moved in. Now that the roommate is there, I find myself getting a hotel when I visit because I feel that it may not be right to stay at the condo since I didn't put anything in the rental agreement about this. Do I have a right to stay there?"
*** Unless there is some other restriction, you have the 'right' as a guest of the roommate/daughter. Just as the roommate has the 'limited' right.

"And if so, can I just add a clause about it to the rental agreement?"
*** No. You simply cannot 'amend' the written agreement without the permission of the tenant(s).

"Should I decrease what the roommate pays for electric?"
*** If you see this as a potential problem, then you might offer some type of adjustment to the rent and/or utilities. Personally, I can see the concern of the roommate, with her being required to pay 1/2, yet 'being' only 1/3.... even on a part-time or occasional basis.

 

[patdenn]

Thank you for your reply.

I thought I could make changes to a rental agreement if I gave 30 days written notice of the change.

 

[JETX]

I thought I could make changes to a rental agreement if I gave 30 days written notice of the change.

Sorry, I overlooked that it was a 'month-to-month' tenancy in your original post.

With that, you can change or modify with a 30 day WRITTEN notice and the tenants subsequent acceptance (by remaining). Of course, it is within the tenants right to also refuse your 'change' and to leave with a 30 day notice also.

 

[patdenn]

I've been reading the Arizona Landlord Tenant Act, and it appears that there is nothing mentioned in the Act regarding the type of renting situation I have. My situation being that my daughter lives in my condo; she doesn't have a lease or any rules to speak of, yet has a roomate who has a rental agreement and rules. It appears that I can't even visit my daughter without giving the tenant at least two days' notice. (ARS 33-1343. Access)

And, it appears that I may even be in violation of ARS 33-1342 Rules and regulations, in that my rules for overnight guests are different for my daughter and her roommate. ARS 33-1342 says that rules must "apply to all tenants in the premises in a fair manner."

There must be something I'm missing here, because there's no way I'm going to ask permission of my tenant to enter the condo to visit my daughter. Any advise is greatly appreciated.

 

[JETX]

I've been reading the Arizona Landlord Tenant Act

Why???

It appears that I can't even visit my daughter without giving the tenant at least two days' notice. (ARS 33-1343. Access)

Since your own daughter is one of the tenants, your 'entry' to the property isn't your 'normal' landlord-tenant relationship. Simply, you should be allowed to enter anytime she is there.... as her guest or visitor.

And, it appears that I may even be in violation of ARS 33-1342 Rules and regulations, in that my rules for overnight guests are different for my daughter and her roommate. ARS 33-1342 says that rules must "apply to all tenants in the premises in a fair manner."

Yep. Appears that one could be a problem for you.

There must be something I'm missing here, because there's no way I'm going to ask permission of my tenant to enter the condo to visit my daughter. Any advise is greatly appreciated.

See my response above.

 

[patdenn]

Why???

Because I don't want to be in violation of any part of the LL laws.

Since your own daughter is one of the tenants, your 'entry' to the property isn't your 'normal' landlord-tenant relationship. Simply, you should be allowed to enter anytime she is there.... as her guest or visitor.

Yep. Appears that one could be a problem for you.

Well...that's what I have issue with...my daughter is not a tenant. The condo's a second home and she lives there, no rent is paid, no rental agreement. I more or less see her as the owner, manager or caretaker. There must be something I can add to the rental agreement to clarify the distinction, similar to a situation where an owner rents a room with full use of the house privileges in an owner occupied dwelling.

The reason I'm looking into this is because my daughter's boyfriend spent a week with her and then the roommate asked permission for her sister to stay for a week. I allowed it, but I do not want this to become a habit.

 

[Whyte Noise]

JETX...

Could he have his DAUGHTER as the LL in this situation?

Seems to me that would be the likely course of action, but I don't know if it would be legal or not. He says his daughter isn't a tenant, and that he considers her the "owner" of the condo.

Then, with the daughter as the "official" LL, the overnight guest rules would only appy to the person "renting" from the LL, correct?

(Although I guess if you look up one of the definitions of tenant and see "any occupant who dwells in a place v: occupy as a tenant" the daughter could be considered technically a tenant....?)

 

[JETX]

Could he have his DAUGHTER as the LL in this situation?

Good idea!!!

Yes, that could be one solution. Simply designate the daughter as 'agent of the owner' and not have ANY lease with her at all. Allow her to enter into the lease with HER roommate. Then, that lease can have any reasonable allowed restrictions.... which would NOT apply to the daughter. However, to remove any possible misunderstanding for when 'Mom' visits, I would suggest the daughter/agent make SURE that the tenant understand that 'Mom' may come visit and will overnight on premises without the same restrictions that might be imposed on the tenant. I would even suggest this be done in writing (as part of, or an addendum, to the lease), just to prevent any misunderstandings. Also, due to this, I would NOT split utilities, but would simply factor their costs into the rent (again, to remove any '1/3 pays 1/2' issues).

 

[patdenn]

Could he have his DAUGHTER as the LL in this situation?

Good idea!!!

Yes, that could be one solution. Simply designate the daughter as 'agent of the owner' and not have ANY lease with her at all. Allow her to enter into the lease with HER roommate. Then, that lease can have any reasonable allowed restrictions.... which would NOT apply to the daughter. However, to remove any possible misunderstanding for when 'Mom' visits, I would suggest the daughter/agent make SURE that the tenant understand that 'Mom' may come visit and will overnight on premises without the same restrictions that might be imposed on the tenant. I would even suggest this be done in writing (as part of, or an addendum, to the lease), just to prevent any misunderstandings. Also, due to this, I would NOT split utilities, but would simply factor their costs into the rent (again, to remove any '1/3 pays 1/2' issues).

Thank you JETX and MissouriGal for the great advise.

I'm thinking she may not even be considered a tenent because I believe the property classifiction for "owner occupied" includes the property being occupied by the owner's son, daughter, father, mother, etc.

Either way, I do need to make an addendum to the rental agreement...naming my daughter as the LL or agent of the owner, changing the Utility payment as mentioned and overnight guests issues. Do I send a notice of the changes only? Or, are we talking an entirely new lease if I am allowing my daughter to enter into the lease with her roommate?

 

[HomeGuru]

Thank you JETX and MissouriGal for the great advise.

I'm thinking she may not even be considered a tenent because I believe the property classifiction for "owner occupied" includes the property being occupied by the owner's son, daughter, father, mother, etc.

**A: and where are you getting the definition of "owner-occupied"? Is if from the HOA CC&R's, your mortgage loan docs.........?

 

[patdenn]

Thank you JETX and MissouriGal for the great advise.

I'm thinking she may not even be considered a tenent because I believe the property classifiction for "owner occupied" includes the property being occupied by the owner's son, daughter, father, mother, etc.

**A: and where are you getting the definition of "owner-occupied"? Is if from the HOA CC&R's, your mortgage loan docs.........?

One place I've seen "owner-occupied" defined is the Arizona property tax laws. Under ARS 42-12053, "Criteria for distinguishing residential property from rental property": "A parcel is not considered rental property...if: "the owner rents the property to a member of the owner's family, who must be: the owner's natural or adopted child...the owner's parent...child-in-law...sibling..."

Owner as defined in the HOA CC&R's refers to the owner of record. CC&R's require a copy of a lease if the unit is rented. I provided a copy of the lease to the HOA manager for my tenant and let her know that my daughter is living there and that I do not have a lease with her. The manager didn't say I had to provide one for her, so I'm assuming she's not considered a tenant by the HOA.

As for mortgage loan docs, I believe the condo was purchased as a second home. It is recorded with the county assessor as owner occupied.