School and the first amendment

[Hopkins306]

What is the name of your state? Indiana

I am posting this for a classmate of mine. He posted a threatening message on his xanga (internet journal thingy) about our schools principal another staff member and the summer reading program they are making us do. the original post has been deleted but i have been told that the threat was ..."They'll realize how stupid it is when i kill them".... The school apparently has been reading what students have been posting and pressed charges agianst him. They are charging it as a felony threat. This all took place away from school. Not a single bit of this took place on school property. He used his home computer. And school doesn't even start for a few weeks. The school has already punished him by kicking him out for two trimesters (24 weeks) and sessions at the local mental health center. I believe the sessions were forced by the school. We want to know if what he said was protected by the first amendment.

 

[notsmartmark]

We want to know if what he said was protected by the first amendment.

Simply - No. Threatening to kill someone is not protected speech. If the student was off campus and threatened to hurt a student who does go to the same school, s/he might have a point. But, when a student threatens to kill staff or students, it is always the school’s business.

Is this a high school student, and if it is a HS student, has s/he been identified with a disability? This is his/her only hope for reduction of the school’s sentence - 24 weeks and the sessions with a counselor.

Keep in mind there are two lines of trouble this student is facing, the court proceedings and the school’s punishment. The school does not own, nor control, the court proceedings. The school makes a complaint, the police investigate, and the DA charges. It is the DA who charged him with the felony. For any court proceedings, schools can only make a complaint. Some schools and individuals might have more of an individual officer’s ear. When many schools are paying a portion of the on-site officer’s salary, it makes sense; it’s too bad, but it’s understandable.

The school's punishment is the removal for 24 weeks and the sessions with a counselor. If it is a college student, the school cannot force your friend to complete the counseling, s/he can go to a different college. If it is a HS student, schools typically require counseling as a means of reducing the amount of time out. So, if the student refuses counseling, the amount of time out increases.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Nothing you posted has any mitigation in this IDIOT's case. He is most likely going to be charged with terroristic threatening and could face up to three years in the Juvenille Justice system.

The fact that he was not on or in school property is meaningless. And he's lucky he wasn't. It's an automatic Class A misdemeanor.

You need a new set of friends.

 

[Hopkins306]

this is a highschool student we're talking about. I've been doing research and what i've found says that a threat has to have immediate and direct threat. I found a case where a student demonstration in Indiana where one of the students threatened to "blow away" President Johnson. The Court ruled that no particular time was set for carrying out the threat, it was not sufficiently "immediate" to constitute a "true threat." During the impeachment hearings against President Clinton. Alec Baldwin, appearing on the David Letterman show, made an impassioned harangue against the House committee conducting the hearings and Chairman Hyde in particular. Baldwin's outburst called for the audience to "go down to Washington and kill Henry Hyde and the whole damn committee! Kill 'em all." Without asking a particular person to perform the killings, or stating that he would specifically go do it himself, this invective becomes unbelievable and, for that reason, is protected speech. In this situation there is not the kind of immediacy that the finding of a "true threat" seems to require.

since my classmate only said "They'll realize how stupid it is when i kill them" there is no immediacy in his threat. so would he get off or is there something I missed?

 

[BelizeBreeze]

I didn't realize you were an attorney.

Well, since you know already the specific case law in Indiana regarding this issue, I'll leave any further discussion on the topic in your capable hands.

ta..ta...

 

[notsmartmark]

Hopkins306,

You have to realize, you, I mean your friend, will be standing before judge in juvenile court. Children have very limited rights. The word, “chattel,” comes to mind. This is not trial by jury. This is a judge who has strong ties to the school system, and has an understanding of what these threats can do to a school deciding his fate. Your friend can barely plead stupid. Anyone who doesn't live under a rock knows how seriously schools and courts take these threats.

Why don’t you tell him to tell the judge that he didn’t know the school would be so upset, or better yet, why don’t you tell him to quote your Alec Baldwin info to the judge. That will win him the case. Seriously, tell him to be as humble as he can possibly muster when he’s before the judge and own that he was an idiot. It was a stupid mistake and his brain was in his pocket or the refrigerator when he did it. Tell him to write letters of apology to all that were harmed and do some community service before they require it of him.

 

[Hopkins306]

I'm not an attorney i just googled the topic and got a bunch of law stuff on it. If he wins his court case does the school have to cancel his suspension and let him back into the school?

 

[BelizeBreeze]

I'm not an attorney i just googled the topic and got a bunch of law stuff on it. If he wins his court case does the school have to cancel his suspension and let him back into the school?

He won't win his case. and no, even if the charges are dropped the school can do what it wants. It is not tied to the court decision.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

And QUIT using google. Instead read Tinker v. Des Moines, 503 U.S. 506. for the exceptions to the 1st amendment rights of students.


Student speech may be suppressed only if the speech: (1) materially and substantially interferes with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the schools; (2) invades or collides with the rights of others; (3) is vulgar, lewd, obscene, or plainly offensive; or (4) is school-sponsored. Additionally, as with free speech rights in any context, school officials may impose reasonable time, place and manner restrictions on student speech.

Care to guess which exception your "Friend's" speech falls under?

 

[Hopkins306]

And QUIT using google. Instead read Tinker v. Des Moines, 503 U.S. 506. for the exceptions to the 1st amendment rights of students.


Student speech may be suppressed only if the speech: (1) materially and substantially interferes with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the schools; (2) invades or collides with the rights of others; (3) is vulgar, lewd, obscene, or plainly offensive; or (4) is school-sponsored. Additionally, as with free speech rights in any context, school officials may impose reasonable time, place and manner restrictions on student speech.

Care to guess which exception your "Friend's" speech falls under?

that stuff only applies during school. And school doesn't start for a few weeks. Freedom of expression has always meant freedom to express even those ideas we find abhorrent such as ****ism which is plainly offensive to people but is still allowed in public. I'll read tinker vs. des moines.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

There you go trying to be an attorney again.

I'm done with you.

 

[Hopkins306]

ok i read the tinker case but it has nothing to do with this...that took place at school and it was about wearing armbands. Tho i do believe they should of been allowed to wear the armbands or have been smart enough to change it to maybe a black shirt or black something else.

 

[Crazed98]

With all the school shootings that have happened in the past years all school take any threat seriously on or off campus. The punishment by the school will not be removed and it is up to the court weather he will be charged.

 

[Hopkins306]

With all the school shootings that have happened in the past years all school take any threat seriously on or off campus. The punishment by the school will not be removed and it is up to the court weather he will be charged.

can he get a hearing with the board of education? can he file anything to get the school to lift the punishment if he is found not guilty?

 

[Crazed98]

can he get a hearing with the board of education? can he file anything to get the school to lift the punishment if he is found not guilty?

He can probobly will get a hearing.

The court and school is different as everyone above stated. Weather or not he is punished by the court he can and will still be punished by the school.

The court will determine weather or not his crime was as serious as the school thought.

The school sees it as very serious because it is their lives at stake. The school will not wait until a kid brings in a gun or bomb to suspend him they will do it right away when they feel it could be a possible threat.

Why do you think they read those internet journel things?