Security Deposit, Pet Deposit, Notice

[CJane]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MO

Ok. I lived in an apartment for about 15 months or so. Moved out June 1.
*My security deposit was $495 and I paid a $150 pet deposit plus $15/month 'pet rent'.

Before turning in my keys, I swept/mopped the kitchen and bath, scrubbed all counters, toilet, tub, sinks, etc and vacuumed the carpets thoroughly. I turned in my keys and a forwarding address.

As of the end of July/Beginning of August, I had heard nothing from the landlord, nor had I received my deposit refund.

So, I looked up the statute (Section 535-300 Security deposits, limitation--return o) and read my lease (which contains the same language as the statute) and wrote a letter to the landlord asserting that they needed to refund my deposit to me by August 8.

On August 9, I received a partial refund of my security deposit ($235) with no explanation as to why more than 1/2 of it was withheld.

I again wrote a letter to the landlord, including a copy of the statute and a copy of the lease w/the relevant portions highlighted. I asserted that they needed to send me the remainder of my deposit ($260) no later than August 23.

On August 23, I received a 'vacate inspection' form which stated that they had to clean the carpets at a cost of $200 due to 'excessive pet urine stains' and they had to replace 2 burner drip pans, as well as paint the apartment.

Now, a few things bother me.

1) My dog was never in the apartment unless he was either in his crate or in the living room with me (and with a babygate in the doorway). He never urinated in the house.

2) Even if my dog had urinated on the carpet - isn't that what the $150 pet deposit is FOR? I mean, that deposit isn't refundable at all. Ever.

3) The 'vacate inspection' says that it was completed, and a copy of the paperwork along with my partial refund were mailed to me on June 20, 2008. Obviously, this is ... inaccurate... since I didn't receive my partial refund until August (the check is dated July 30). And I actually received this 'vacate inspection' this past Saturday.

4) Missouri statute seems to lay out pretty specific requirements that must be met before a landlord can withhold all or a portion of a security deposit:

Within thirty days after the date of termination of the tenancy, the landlord shall:

(1) Return the full amount of the security deposit; or

Obviously didn't happen.

(2) Furnish to the tenant a written itemized list of the damages for which the security deposit or any portion thereof is withheld, along with the balance of the security deposit. The landlord shall have complied with this subsection by mailing such statement and any payment to the last known address of the tenant.

Didn't happen - at least, not within 30 days, and not until AFTER a portion of my deposit had already been withheld.

3. The landlord may withhold from the security deposit only such amounts as are reasonably necessary for the following reasons:

(1) To remedy a tenant's default in the payment of rent due to the landlord, pursuant to the rental agreement;

Not the reason they list (and wouldn't be true anyway)

(2) To restore the dwelling unit to its condition at the commencement of the tenancy, ordinary wear and tear excepted; or

What falls under 'ordinary wear and tear'? I mean, there were no holes in the walls, everything was clean, the carpet was in good shape, the doors and appliances and drawers all functioned, the closet doors were on their tracks, the blinds were intact and functioning...

(3) To compensate the landlord for actual damages sustained as a result of the tenant's failure to give adequate notice to terminate the tenancy pursuant to law or the rental agreement; provided that the landlord makes reasonable efforts to mitigate damages.

Again, not listed as a reason and not applicable.

4. The landlord shall give the tenant or his representative reasonable notice in writing at his last known address or in person of the date and time when the landlord will inspect the dwelling unit following the termination of the rental agreement to determine the amount of the security deposit to be withheld, and the inspection shall be held at a reasonable time.

Didn't happen. And they had my forwarding address, my 'last known address', my work phone number, my cell phone number and my boyfriend's number.

The tenant shall have the right to be present at the inspection of the dwelling unit at the time and date scheduled by the landlord.

Didn't happen.

So... I'm writing them one more letter, asserting that they can't NOW claim damages and rightfully withhold a portion of my deposit because they're so far outside the 30-day window.

Is my interpretation correct? If they don't adhere to the 30 day window, they're out of luck, yes?

Does the 'inaccurate' date that they claim they mailed the inspection/deposit to me constitute fraud on their part?

If I do file in small claims court, do I serve the manager (who signed the inspection and the lease) or the corporate office (for which I only have a PO Box)?

 

[Bloopy]

On August 9, I received a partial refund of my security deposit ($235) with no explanation as to why more than 1/2 of it was withheld.

I again wrote a letter to the landlord, including a copy of the statute and a copy of the lease w/the relevant portions highlighted. I asserted that they needed to send me the remainder of my deposit ($260) no later than August 23.

On August 23, I received a 'vacate inspection' form, which stated that they had to clean the carpets at a cost of $200 due to 'excessive pet urine stains' and they had to replace 2 burner drip pans, as well as paint the apartment.

Now, a few things bother me.

1) My dog was never in the apartment unless he was either in his crate or in the living room with me (and with a babygate in the doorway). He never urinated in the house.

Do you have any pictures to show the dog’s arrangements and the condition you left the carpets in? Could Twain have left such carpet stains?

2) Even if my dog had urinated on the carpet - isn't that what the $150 pet deposit is FOR? I mean, that deposit isn't refundable at all. Ever.

Yes. But many landlords see it as bonus money the get for giving you the privilege of having a pet.

So... I'm writing them one more letter, asserting that they can't NOW claim damages and rightfully withhold a portion of my deposit because they're so far outside the 30-day window.

Is my interpretation correct? If they don't adhere to the 30 day window, they're out of luck, yes?

Yep

Does the 'inaccurate' date that they claim they mailed the inspection/deposit to me constitute fraud on their part?

Doubtful. The person who made the inspection and the person issuing the actual check had lag time.

If I do file in small claims court, do I serve the manager (who signed the inspection and the lease) or the corporate office (for which I only have a PO Box)?

Find out when you escalate this to the corporate office, where this will die anyway.

It seem they are accustomed to cleaning the carpets between tenants and paying for the with the security deposit. You’re likely one of the few that bothered to object

I venture to guess you’ve got more fight in you over than $200 than they do.

 

[CJane]

Do you have any pictures to show the dog’s arrangements and the condition you left the carpets in? Could Twain have left such carpet stains?

No, I was too stupid to take pics before I left. And the dog's 'arrangements' were to be on the privacy fenced patio during the day and either with me in the living room at night or in his crate in the linen closet in the bathroom. And to my knowledge, Twain never peed on the floor.

Yes. But many landlords see it as bonus money the get for giving you the privilege of having a pet.

Yeah, I kinda figured.

Yep

YAY! I love being right!

Doubtful. The person who made the inspection and the person issuing the actual check had lag time.

I just looked at the paperwork they sent again... it says "Your deposit refund is enclosed"... clearly it wasn't. I just hate liars. You know that.

Find out when you escalate this to the corporate office, where this will die anyway.

It seem they are accustomed to cleaning the carpets between tenants and paying for the with the security deposit. You’re likely one of the few that bothered to object

I don't doubt that.

I venture to guess you’ve got more fight in you over than $200 than they do.

$260. That's a car payment. Also, statute allows me to sue for 2X the amount withheld. THAT is a house payment.

 

[Bloopy]

$260. That's a car payment. Also, statute allows me to sue for 2X the amount withheld. THAT is a house payment.

Dude. Settle for the $260. That's all the schmuck in the office has the authority to "give."

Small Claims court is gonna cost you more in lost wages etc.

 

[CJane]

Dude. Settle for the $260. That's all the schmuck in the office has the authority to "give."

Small Claims court is gonna cost you more in lost wages etc.

Oh, I totally will. If I get a check for $260, they'll never hear from me again.

 

[MIRAKALES]

All security DEPOSITS are potentially refundable. All security FEES or rental FEES are not refundable. The security deposit delay may have been caused due to a lack of tenant signature on notice to vacate with forwarding address of mailing.
Tenant is responsible for providing a forwarding address to LL (signed in writing) or having the mail forwarded from the current address (lease address). The pet deposit is non-refundable if pet damages exist. The pet fee is never refunded because it is a non-refundable charge. The pet deposit/fee does not limit tenant pet liability to the $150 amount; LL can deduct additional pet damages (as with all damages) from the actual security deposit. As all damages are deductible from the security deposit.

The security deposit is used to deduct for failure to “restore premises to original condition” and for unpaid rent or unpaid utilities or charges. What constitutes "normal wear and tear" are items not actually caused by tenant -- such as faded paint or loose hinges. (Paint that is dirty or missing hinges are damage.)

 

[CJane]

All security DEPOSITS are potentially refundable. All security FEES or rental FEES are not refundable. The security deposit delay may have been caused due to a lack of tenant signature on notice to vacate with forwarding address of mailing.

May have been, yes. But it wasn't. 1) I did the forwarding thing w/the post office, so if they sent it to my 'last known address' which was the apt I leased from them, I would have received it. 2) I left a forwarding address w/the complex when I turned in my keys. 3) They claim, on the paperwork they've dated 06/20/08, that it was mailed to my current address on 06/20/08 and they go on to list my current address.

Tenant is responsible for providing a forwarding address to LL (signed in writing) or having the mail forwarded from the current address (lease address).

Done.

The pet deposit is non-refundable if pet damages exist. The pet fee is never refunded because it is a non-refundable charge.

Actually, my pet deposit is non-refundable regardless of damages. So is the pet 'rent' I paid extra every month.

The pet deposit/fee does not limit tenant pet liability to the $150 amount; LL can deduct additional pet damages (as with all damages) from the actual security deposit. As all damages are deductible from the security deposit.

I get that. But here's the break down that they're supplying me with:

Security Deposit of 495
carpet cleaning -- -200 (required for excessive pet stains/odor removal due to pet urine)
general cleaning -- -50 (including dog feces on patio)
burner pans (2) -- -10 ($5 each)

Refunded portion of deposit - $235

IF they're to apply the $150 pet deposit to the 'damages' they allege my pet did (and I still contend he did NOT urinate inside EVER), should't it read more like:

Security Deposit of $495
Pet Deposit of $150
Carpet cleaning -- -200 (blah blah blah)
General cleaning -- -50 (blah blah blah)
burner pans (2) -- -10 (blah blah)

Refunded portion of deposit $385 (applying the $150 pet deposit to the carpet cleaning and 'eating' the additional 100 for cleaning the patio and carpets).

Also, the patios are essentially common areas - so I hesitate to take responsibility for any 'feces' that may have been present when they supposedly inspected a MONTH after I moved out.

The security deposit is used to deduct for failure to “restore premises to original condition” and for unpaid rent or unpaid utilities or charges. What constitutes "normal wear and tear" are items not actually caused by tenant -- such as faded paint or loose hinges. (Paint that is dirty or missing hinges are damage.)

Well, I know the walls weren't dirty, and I cleaned everything else. But whatever. It's up to THEM to prove damages, yes?

Also, if I'm interpreting statute correctly, all of this is moot as they did not follow statutory guidlines and do any/all of this w/in 30 days.

Again...

I NEVER received notice of when the apt would be inspected (required by statute)
I did not receive the list of itemized damages until AUGUST 23 (required by statute to be provided w/in 30 days)
I did not receive the partial refund of the deposit until August 9 - check dated 07/30/2008 (required by statute to be provided w/in 30 days)

Additionally, the info/itemized listing/etc was postmarked 08/21/2008 but states that it was sent on 06/20/2008 - clearly not true.

And upon closer inspection of the paperwork, they're charging me the cleaning rates for a THREE bedroom, and I rented a TWO bedroom.

My question is really - "If the guidelines that statute sets out are not followed - ie the 30 day window has closed before ANY info is received AND I was denied my right to be present at the inspection - can they withhold ANY monies at all regardless of alleged damage?"

 

[CJane]

The idea of a pet fee is that the pet causes 'wear and tear' style damage that is not normally deductible from a security deposit, but is more than just what happens when a person lives in the apartment. This includes scratchs on wood floors, snags on carpet, minimal pet odors.

This reduces the lifetime of some items sooner than if the pet wasn't present, and so the LL charges a fee to cover that extra cost.

HOWEVER, for damage caused by the pet, this is covered by the normal security deposit. Example, urine stained carpet, chewed up molding, etc.

That actually makes some sort of sense, even if I disagree with it on principle. I didn't have to pay a KID deposit, and I assure you that children have the capacity to cause FAR more wear and tear on a place than my dog.

Did you pay for the month of June? If you did, they might not have started inspection until you're lease expired.

My lease expired on March 31 2008. I became a month-month tenant at that point. The (fraudulently dated) paperwork they sent me states that I vacated the premises on May 31 2007 which is correct.

Either way, it looks like they missed the 30 days, but they think they mailed your deposit on time, but for some reason it was 'lost in the mail.' Not sure how small claims would rule on that... It would be a coin toss...

Why would it be a coin toss? I have a letter that's post marked Aug 21 that states that it was mailed on June 20. It also states that my check is enclosed.

But my check is dated July 30 and came in an envelope postmarked August 5.

 

[MIRAKALES]

I didn't have to pay a KID deposit, and I assure you that children have the capacity to cause FAR more wear and tear on a place than my dog.

I did the forwarding thing w/the post office, so if they sent it to my 'last known address' which was the apt I leased from them, I would have received it.
I left a forwarding address w/the complex when I turned in my keys.

The family is a protected class according to federal and state laws. The pet is not protected. Therefore, it would be illegal to charge a deposit for children. It is perfectly legal to charge a fee for pets. In addition, children tend not to urinate on the floor or scratch molding and walls, tear carpet, screens, woodwork, etc.

On the surface, it appears that specific mistakes were made in the process of move-out and lease termination which might have compromised the security deposit. Focus on the solution rather than being critical of the errors and process. The law is the law and challenges of the law will not help YOUR (tenant) cause.

Tenant must deliver the forwarding address IN WRITING with the Notice to Vacate in order to make a claim of security deposit violation. The post stated that tenant "left a forwarding address with the complex..." which implies that the tenant notice to vacate did not include the forwarding address. Therein is the issue where the law will not work in YOUR (tenant) favor.

 

[CJane]

The family is a protected class according to federal and state laws. The pet is not protected. Therefore, it would be illegal to charge a deposit for children. It is perfectly legal to charge a fee for pets. In addition, children tend not to urinate on the floor or scratch molding and walls, tear carpet, screens, woodwork, etc.

Do you not get sarcasm? My dog did none of those things either. And I HAVE known children who WOULD do those things.

On the surface, it appears that specific mistakes were made in the process of move-out and lease termination which might have compromised the security deposit. Focus on the solution rather than being critical of the errors and process. The law is the law and challenges of the law will not help YOUR (tenant) cause.

Huh? I seriously don't know what you're talking about at all in this paragraph.

Tenant must deliver the forwarding address IN WRITING with the Notice to Vacate in order to make a claim of security deposit violation. The post stated that tenant "left a forwarding address with the complex..." which implies that the tenant notice to vacate did not include the forwarding address. Therein is the issue where the law will not work in YOUR (tenant) favor.

I have stated on multiple occasions in this thread that I DID in fact leave a forwarding address. With the apartment manager AND with the post office. I have also stated that the 'vacate inspection' (dated 06/08) says "A copy of this inspection, along with applicable refund of security deposit was mailed on June 20, 2008 to:

MY CURRENT ADDRESS

Which is moot because statute requires that all of the notices/etc be sent to the LAST KNOWN ADDRESS unless provided w/a forwarding address. They HAD my LAST KNOWN ADDRESS because it was THEIR COMPLEX.

 

[MIRAKALES]

To continue the claim of security deposit refund violation, tenant (YOU) will need to PROVE in a court of law that 1) the Notice to Vacate was delivered with the forwarding mailing address in a timely manner, and 2) the USPS forwarding mailing address was in effect at the time of move-out and on the date when the security deposit should have been refunded. Proof of mail delivery will be required in the form of a certified mail receipt to verify the claim. (Leaving a forwarding address with the complex is not valid proof in a court of law.) It can also take two weeks to thirty (30) days for USPS mail forward to take effect.

This is the reason for the statement:

"On the surface, it appears that specific mistakes were made [by LL and tenant] in the process of move-out and lease termination which might have compromised the security deposit [refund return date]. Focus on the solution [the law] rather than being critical of the errors and process. The law is the law [requires proof] and challenges of the law will not help YOUR (tenant) cause."​

 

[CourtClerk]

Mirakles,

Are you actually READING CJane's responses before you type out all of your drivel? I think not, because almost NONE of your posts respond to what she's speaking of. Of COURSE the prior LL had her forwarding address, THAT'S WHERE THEY SENT THE REFUND... are you that dense that after all these posts you can't see that she's typed that over and over and over again. The issue is NOT that they didn't have anywhere to send her deposit, the issue ONE MORE TIME is that they did not sent it timely, per statute.

With that being said, please.... stop. Allow someone to answer her who can read and decipher what she's saying. You aren't doing it.

 

[CJane]

I don't allow dogs because I have wood floors, and dog claws will eat those alive. The kid deposit is factored in to the number of bedrooms (and as mentioned, families are a protected class).

Oh, I get it, and if I were a landlord, I wouldn't allow dogs on hdwd floors either. Though I have 100+ year old hdwd floors in the house I just bought and as long as Fido's nails are trimmed, I'm still pretty sure the kids will do more damage than he will.

It's a coin toss because they will say they mailed it and it got lost in the mail (either they sent it to the old address or it really didn't get to your new address because the postman didn't recognize the name yet. My postman did that to us the first week. When we ask the post office why we hadn't gotten any mail, they said we were required to put our name in our mailbox.)

Plausible. But they'd be lying. And I moved 10 miles away to a town of 400 people that I lived in prior. So it's not like my name isn't recognizable. Also, I forwarded my mail 2 weeks before vacating and was receiving all kinds of mail at the new house before I ever officially moved out of the apartment. So there was no 'lag'.

Since the code doesn't specify how to send the refund, this could be demend not their fault.

You will of course say they never sent it based on the post marks and dated checks.

Who wins? I don't know...

Hopefully me before it ever gets to court.

 

[CJane]

Mirakles,

Are you actually READING CJane's responses before you type out all of your drivel? I think not, because almost NONE of your posts respond to what she's speaking of. Of COURSE the prior LL had her forwarding address, THAT'S WHERE THEY SENT THE REFUND... are you that dense that after all these posts you can't see that she's typed that over and over and over again. The issue is NOT that they didn't have anywhere to send her deposit, the issue ONE MORE TIME is that they did not sent it timely, per statute.

With that being said, please.... stop. Allow someone to answer her who can read and decipher what she's saying. You aren't doing it.

Thank you. I was about to go take my anti-crazy person pill.

 

[MIRAKALES]

Semantics is a professional language game designed not to convey the plain truth which causes error in interpretation.
Straight forward language makes for clear understanding. Question: Did tenant include forwarding address with ORIGINAL notice to vacate?

Semantics:
“I turned in my keys and a forwarding address.” “I did the forwarding thing w/the post office…” “I left a forwarding address w/the complex…”

State Law:
Tenant must deliver the forwarding address IN WRITING with the Notice to Vacate in order to make a claim of security deposit violation.

Tenant statements clearly imply that the original WRITTEN notice to vacate did NOT include the forwarding address. The law will not work in YOUR (tenant) favor if the notice to vacate did not include the forwarding mailing address. If the forwarding address was included with the notice to vacate then it is a clear error of the LL's part. Otherwise, tenant is responsible for the delayed delivery for not providing the forwarding address with the notice to vacate.