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Security Deposit / They took too much

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StephanieA

Guest
Hi! I hope someone can help me. I just moved out of a condo in Ventura, CA. We had been there 3 years and gave them $1050. security deposit. We got our check today and it was $500. The 2 things in the list that I disagree with were $200. for "Clean the whole condo" and $190. for "Clean carpets".

Now, I cleaned the whole house for a day. It was SPOTLESS. We also used a Bissell steam cleaner on the carpets. There was nothing on them.

Can they do this? I have been reading online and everything seems to say that they cannot charge for normal wear and tear. But I have been unable to define "normal wear and tear"

Thank you for your help!
 


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djdj

Guest
Well this will teach you a lesson......you ALWAYS do a move out report with the owner, and agree in writing the amount of damages BEFORE you hand them the keys...

Also why didnt you spend $20-30 on some disposable cameras, for proof,to show a judge incase the LL tries to screw you?
 

JETX

Senior Member
I would suggest that you contact the former landlord in writing and respectfully request a copy of the receipts and bills for the items that were deducted from your deposit.

And, you are correct, "normal wear and tear" is a rather subjective term, kind of like "in substantial agreement". What is one person's "wear and tear" is another persons damage. That is why I suggest that you ask the landlord to substantiate their deductions.
 
S

StephanieA

Guest
They did send us a sheet of paper listing how much they spent and on what. It was hand written and just said, $200. for "Clean the whole condo" and $190. for "Clean carpets.

I can call them and get actual receipts. But still, how do I know if it is legal to charge me to clean the carpets? I mean, I understand most landlords would have a cleaning crew come in before new tenants do, but am I supposed to pay for that?

And yes, I learned my lesson! :b I am not used to being taken advantage of. I normally trust people!
 
L

LL

Guest
Cleaning of apartment and cleaning of carpet is cleaning and not wear and tear.
 

JETX

Senior Member
Let me try to be a little clearer....

I am in complete agreement with LL, cleaning is not replacing or repairing.

Generally, 'normal wear and tear' is considered to be anything that a normal person would expect to occur in the normal everyday use of the property. Lint on a carpet that can be vacuumed up is 'wear and tear', an acid stain is not. A mark on tile that can be cleaned by mopping or waxing is 'wear and tear', a ripped up tile or a tear in lineoleum is not. A burned out light bulb is 'wear and tear', a ripped out fixture is not.

If you have to replace a carpet due to damage (tears, stains, etc... that CANNOT be cleaned) caused by the tenant, the tenant is liable for that damage. However, if you just have to clean the carpet, that is considered 'normal wear' and would be done as a normal course of releasing the unit.

As for 'cleaning the entire condo', it sounds like that should be an owner expense... as long as you left it in clean and reasonable condition.

As I said before... contact the landlord in writing, detail your position that the deductions were excessive, ask for SPECIFIC receipts for the work that was done (a lot of landlords 'guesstimate' the cost to their benefit... also work that they do themselves isn't recoverable in most states). Also, ask for any evidence to show that the 'claimed damages' were not normal use of the condo.

Start now to gather the information that you might need in the event of having to go to Small Claims to recover your deposit deductions not supported by facts. The responsibility is on the landlord to justify their deductions.
 
L

LL

Guest
I read Steve Halket's posting from last week, and I offer some further comments hoping to make this important subject even more clear.

Steve says that he agrees with me that cleaning is not replacing or repairing. But it is not wear and tear either.

First, let me point out that "normal wear and tear" is a matter of what normally should happen to a carpet (or whatever), not what a person might do to it in the course of what they think may be normal behavior.

Having said that, I would change some of your example, Steve, hoping only to contribute to a discussion that makes the issue more clear for us all:

Walking on the carpet, bringing in dirt from the outside, dust from open windows, etc. is very normal behavior, and (under ordinary circumstances) is not damage to a carpet. But it is not wear and tear, either. It is cleaning.
If you walk on the carpet for 20 years and wear out a hole in it, that's wear & tear. When I have to clean a carpet because the tenant didn't, I take a picture of the drain water from the extractor. If it is black, the photograph serves as a demonstration of the need for cleaning. So dirt, even from normal behavior, is neither damage nor wear & tear, but is cleaning.

Lint on a carpet that can be vacuumed up is not wear & tear, but cleaning. It was the tenant's responsibility to vacuum the lint. The carpet wasn't worn or torn from normal use, it was dirty.

A mark on tile that can be cleaned by mopping or even scrubbing is again, not wear & tear, it is cleaning. Vinyl floor covering that has a hole worn through, strictly from walking on it for years is wear & tear. A rip in the floor covering from dragging a sharp object across it is negligence, not "normal" wear & tear, no matter how normal the activity that caused it.

Spilling beer (or anything else) on the carpet while watching the Superbowl game in the living room is not "normal wear & tear", no matter how normal the activity of watching the game in the living room or drinking beer may be. It is negligence, and the tenant is responsible for cleaning if it can be cleaned, and damage otherwise.

As a parent myself, I am not surprised to see a kid's room with crayon writing or ball-point pen writing on the walls, or a lot of other things. But, no matter how normal that is for children to do, it is still not "normal wear & tear", it is damage.

I had a tenant once, who sued me for return of his security. He happened to be a paralegal, who claimed that he was going to law school at night. I don't doubt that he had advice from the lawyers at his firm. In court, he questioned his roommate, asking him questions like: "Did you throw any wild parties?" and "Did you bring any farm animals into the apartment?", trying to establish that all that they did was normal behavior, and I answered with the argument that it is not the behavior that counts, it is the result and whether the result is a normal result based on wearing and tearing. The judge said verbally that he agreed with me. He also threwthe book at the paralegal, although I don't know if it was my argument or that the paralegal had made a fool of himself in court in this and other ways.

Steve, I don't understand what you mean that "However, if you just have to clean the carpet, that is considered 'normal wear' and would be done as a normal course of releasing the unit.". Do you mean, as the tenant's normal course of releasing the apartment back to the landlord? It is the tenant's responsibility to leave it clean, including the carpet. Dirt is never wear & tear.

"As for 'cleaning the entire condo', it sounds like that should be an owner expense... as long as you left it in clean and reasonable condition.". How would this come about? Theoretically, the owner having cleaned once in the beginning should never have to clean again from tenant-to-tenant, because each tenant should clean and pass it on. Of course, if one tenant slips up, the owner still owes a clean apartment to the next tenant if he has to charge the old tenant or eat the expense himself. But theoretically, it should work that way. It can be reasoned, based on the idea that tenants normally should not have to leave the apartment cleaner than they got it (although the landlord can contract with the tenant to do that). That idea works two ways. If they don't have to leave it cleaner than they got it, can they leave it less clean than they got it? No.

I often have the problem that tenants think (or claim) that they leave it clean but I have to have the unit re-cleaned before I can bring the next tenant. In court once, I prevailed, but the judge advised me to put a cleaning standard into the lease. I have since put in the clause that the tenant shall return the apartment "in its original clean condition". This is a higher standard than "clean and reasonable condition", and I believe that my standard is what judges apply in California, although I feel even better having in the lease.

All this standard business is, of course, subject to proof of the facts in court on either side.
 
L

LL

Guest
Just to make the issue even more clear, I copied a few portions of California law:

1950.5. (a) This section applies to security for a rental agreement for residential property that is used as the dwelling of the tenant.
(b) As used in this section, "security" means any payment, fee, deposit or charge, including, but not limited to, an advance payment of rent, used or to be used for any purpose, including, but not limited to, any of the following:
(1) The compensation of a landlord for a tenant's default in the payment of rent.
(2) The repair of damages to the premises, exclusive of ordinary wear and tear.
(3) The cleaning of the premises upon termination of the tenancy.

...

(e) The landlord may claim of the security only those amounts as are necessary for the purposes specified in subdivision (b).

What this shows is that:

1. The issue of cleaning the premises upon termination of the tenancy is an entirely separate item from repair of damages to the premises.

and
2. The concept of excluding wear and tear from charges to the security upon termination of the lease applies only to repair of damages, and not at all to cleaning of the premises.

I would expect the laws in other states to reflect the same reasoning.




[Edited by LL on 02-23-2001 at 05:41 PM]
 
L

LL

Guest
I found that Texas law actually has a definition of "Normal wear and tear". It seems to be the best definition on that subject that I have seen, so I thought that I would share it, even though it was meant to apply in Texas. This is a subject that is important to many people, and there is a lot of misinformation being passed around.


CHAPTER 92. RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES

SUBCHAPTER A. GENERAL PROVISIONS

§ 92.001. Definitions

Except as otherwise provided by this chapter, in this chapter:

(4) "Normal wear and tear" means deterioration that results from the intended use of a dwelling, including, for the purposes of Subchapters B and D, breakage or malfunction due to age or deteriorated condition, but the term does not include deterioration that results from negligence, carelessness, accident, or abuse of the premises, equipment, or chattels by the tenant, by a member of the tenant's household, or by a guest or invitee of the tenant.


Thus, according to this definition, normal wear & tear is deterioration, and that would exclude dirt. The definition also specifically disallows deterioration from negligence, carelessness and accident.



The following are the only things I could find in Texas law about security deposits and the conditions of their return:

SUBCHAPTER C. SECURITY DEPOSITS

§ 92.102. Security Deposit

A security deposit is any advance of money, other than a rental application deposit or an advance payment of rent, that is intended primarily to secure performance under a lease of a dwelling that has been entered into by a landlord and a tenant.

§ 92.104. Retention of Security Deposit; Accounting

(a) Before returning a security deposit, the landlord may deduct from the deposit damages and charges for which the tenant is legally liable under the lease or as a result of breaching the lease.

(b) The landlord may not retain any portion of a security deposit to cover normal wear and tear.


Nothing in Texas statutes says anything specific about deducting from the security deposit for cleaning, but 92.104(a) says the "landlord may deduct from the deposit damages and charges for which the tenant is legally liable under the lease or as a result of breaching the lease.", so I would guess that if the lease provides for the unit to be returned in "clean and reasonable condition", then the landlord could deduct for a breach of that condition, but not more, and if the lease provided for the unit to be returned in "its original clean condition", then the landlord could deduct for a breach of that.
 

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