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SLICKCRAFT BOATS vs SLEEKCRAFT BOATS

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lowenstat

Member
FIRST: In this trademark infringement action,1 the district court, after a brief non-jury trial, found appellant AMF's trademark was valid, but not infringed, and denied AMF's request for injunctive relief.2
THEN: Based on the preceding analysis, we hold that Nescher has infringed the Slickcraft mark. Since Nescher's use is continuing, an injunction should have been entered. Several considerations, however, convince us that a limited injunction will suffice.
Moral of story, get a good attorney next time.

I don't mean to be negative but, lets face it, slick sleek slick sleek sick slick sleek...

No difference and when I first read the article from the start I was shocked that they were denied. I can't be that smart. I do know a thing or two more so then some but a court / judge ruling against this complaint?

The name is simply too close for confort. If I was Slickcrafts owner or attorny I wouldnt have even come close to chooing the same name. And I do not believe for one moment that he didn't know of the Sleekcraft name. No way. I will however admit that he is ignorant or basic trademark rules.

If it sounds like a Duck then dont call it Ducky either lol.

Question, if I can, why didn't he get hit with huge fees and fines? Was it because the coirt didn't find him to be willful? Which I agree with. never imagined ignorant works in these cases though. It sure doesn't when I get speeding tickets.

And they even let the guy keep using his stantionary. What the heck. I think forcing him to dump it all and start over is fair.

In fact, the more I think about it I still cant beleive the initial judge even ruled against the complaint. From an attorneys prospective wasnt this judge clearly out of his mind?

This is what I mentioned in a post prior about a case depends on actors that are not fair. Time of day, judges mood, attorneys lacking... You just never know who is going to win and it is frustrating that it can not be clear cut. Again, life.
 
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divgradcurl

Senior Member
Question, if I can, why didn't he get hit with huge fees and fines? Was it because the coirt didn't find him to be willful? Which I agree with. never imagined ignorant works in these cases though. It sure doesn't when I get speeding tickets.
Willful infringement doesn't mean that you knew the other guy had a trademark -- to prove willful infringement, you need to prove that the infringer was told that he was infringing -- hence the C&D letter. Plus, since this is a fraud allegation, the level of proof is higher than a normal civil cause of action -- clear and convincing instead of preponderance of the evidence.

In fact, the more I think about it I still cant beleive the initial judge even ruled against the complaint. From an attorneys prospective wasnt this judge clearly out of his mind?
The appellate record here does not discuss all of the stuff that went on in the bench trial. We don't know what evidence there was, how it was presented, etc. Further, this is the case that really set the modern standard for "likelihood of confusion" in the 9th circuit -- before this case, it is likely that the lower court judge was using a different test, or applying this test differently. Before this case, the test wasn't as clearly spelled out, so seemingly clear-cut cases of infringement might have gone differently before this case came out.

It is no way means the judge was out of his mind. This case is an important case because it articulates a test that wasn't clear before -- you can't fault the lower court for what happened before.

That said, maybe the judge was wrong, but you can't tell from this case.

This is what I mentioned in a post prior about a case depends on actors that are not fair. Time of day, judges mood, attorneys lacking... You just never know who is going to win and it is frustrating that it can not be clear cut. Again, life.
I am not sure how this statement is relevant to this Sleekcraft case. What you are seeing in your current case, and what you read about in the published opinion, are two different snapshots of events that unfold over a year or more.
 

lowenstat

Member
Regarding the boat case: Was sound alike names not a condition back then? I am not so inclined to give this judge a pass although you do raise some good points. My thinking is that I could ask that question of names from anybody here or on the phone to attorney offices and they would all say the same thing - Name is infringment. If that is the case then how could this judge not see it. I am even more amazed that the defandent even defend the suit. COuld he have just changed his name or does he have to go through it all anyway or they will rip him a cavern to die in? Guess money allows you to do anything. Which is a factor in the next paragraph.

My point is that no one knows who is going to win and why is that? I would argue that 30% and even more is based on what side of the bed the judge got up on and his mood, which attorney didn't do his job that week and how things were presented in court, who's got more money, etc.

Do you not feel this way?

If not then know that client do and strongly. It has to do with games from each side and luck as well.

The court system is not even close to fair. But no need to get into all that. It is the best we have and I like it enough.

divfracurl - what does that stand for and what is your attorney experience in if you wil say.
 
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divgradcurl

Senior Member
Do you not feel this way?
No. I am not saying that lawyer skill, and a judge's ideas and emotions, play no role in a case -- but no lawyer can win when the facts are heavily stacked against them, and both judges and lawyers are subject to sanctions if they try and play the system.

If not then know that client do and strongly. It has to do with games from each side and luck as well.
Maybe that's your opinion, but it's not the general feeling of the clients I have worked with. Most clients realize that there is some element of uncertainty in any trial, and accept it. The reason why trials are uncertain is because no case goes to trial unless it is close -- if it was a slam-dunk either way it would have been one of the 95%+ of cases that settle (or are adjudicated) before trial.

The court system is not even close to fair.
I am not sure why you feel that way. The legal system in this country is imperfect, but I am not sure that it is unfair. It may seem that way when it is being used against you, but I am sure you would be singing the praises if it were going the other way.
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
Regarding the boat case: Was sound alike names not a condition back then?
The point is this -- the test is "likelihood of confusion" not "the names sound alike." I do not know how "likelihood of confusion" was determined in the 9th Circuit prior to Sleekcraft. It may be that the test was much more vague, and given the evidence, the judge ruled in the right way. I don't know, you can probably find out if you are willing to research. More to the point, whatever happened before, the 9th circuit laid down a test that is still being used.

My point wasn't that the lower court judge was objectively right or wrong under the test that existed at the time, just that it isn't possible to tell from the published opinion.

And if you read through Sleekcraft, you saw that the test is a multipart balancing test that is much more complicated than "sound alike names."

My thinking is that I could ask that question of names from anybody here or on the phone to attorney offices and they would all say the same thing - Name is infringment. If that is the case then how could this judge not see it. I am even more amazed that the defandent even defend the suit. COuld he have just changed his name or does he have to go through it all anyway or they will rip him a cavern to die in? Guess money allows you to do anything. Which is a factor in the next paragraph.
I don't know, you seem willing to take on a another company to protect your livelihood -- not sure what the difference is. Maybe under the older test, the question of confusion was sufficiently vague that it didn't seem like a slam dunk. That case is 25 years old -- the laws change. You can't judge what happened then on the laws we have today.
 

lowenstat

Member
I am not sure why you feel that way. The legal system in this country is imperfect, but I am not sure that it is unfair. It may seem that way when it is being used against you, but I am sure you would be singing the praises if it were going the other way.
I like your points and I will also say I like you too. Your replies imo are grounded and you are patient.

As for a fair system, I would have to argue against that very strongly.

It might be the type of cases you work on, but whoever has the most money wins. That is not fair.

I will tell you, even if it makes you laugh because I do realize it may sound silly from a in-the-field professional to hear this, but what would be fair is if I could defend an infringment suit without knowing the law and just walk into court and present my case. That takes the money out the equation. Boy, wouldnt that be something.

Also I do speak of the court in very broad terms. Criminal court, oddly enough, even though I can walk into court and present my own case I stil wouldn't win. I would gget slammed with the dream team pounding me.

Those are might be dramatic scenareos of course. But it happen every week all year long.

And it is not true that I would sing the praises of teh court system if I were winning. I would most certainly feel like this schmuck got taken for a ride. I would be glad I won and played the game better though and had luck on my side more then him.
 

lowenstat

Member
Your points are strong about that judge. But I still wont give him slack. It was just too simple. I do appreciate yoru feedback though and I understand I am possibly making it too simple.

I don't know, you seem willing to take on a another company to protect your livelihood -- not sure what the difference is. Maybe under the older test, the question of confusion was sufficiently vague that it didn't seem like a slam dunk. That case is 25 years old -- the laws change. You can't judge what happened then on the laws we have today.
I feel the way I do because I know I am in the right regarding selling, maybe not so much in regards to advertising and I have no problems changing it so say anything needed. I have no idea about the livlihood. Havn't had too much business to be honest. But more to my point is that If served with that suit for the boats I would ahev just changed the name and asked for forgiveness. Did he have to defend himelf so he wouldnt get steamrolled? I guess they probably were trying to take his profits for the last decade so must defend it and see what happens. He had enough money to defend it. And when everythign was said and done he sure made out great! Wrong in both decision imo but lucky for him.

Just curious, do you think he got off scott free as they say and was lucky?
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
It might be the type of cases you work on, but whoever has the most money wins. That is not fair.
That's also not true at all. If you are going to slug it out until you can't slug no more, then it helps to be able to pay your attorneys. But it is certainly not true that the big money players always win, not by a long shot.

I will tell you, even if it makes you laugh because I do realize it may sound silly from a in-the-field professional to hear this, but what would be fair is if I could defend an infringment suit without knowing the law and just walk into court and present my case. That takes the money out the equation. Boy, wouldnt that be something.
I don't completely disagree with this. But a lot of the complexity exists because things are just complicated, and it's not really workable to build a set of simple rules that will cover every possible scenario out there. So instead, we use flexible rules so we can cover everything, at least to a certain perspective.

Besides, anyone can go and act as their own lawyer if they want. Anyone can learn the law, it just takes a lot of time and patience. And a lot of reading. For a lot of people, it's not worth the effort, it's better to hire an expert. I can do plumbing, it's not that difficult, but I hire a plumber because they can do a better job faster than I can, and I have someone to turn to if something goes wrong.

Should plumbing be made so simple that anyone can do it easily without a plumber? How about auto repair? Accounting? Medicine? Sometimes its not physically possible to make something easy for everyone, like medicine or auto repair. Other times, it's just not practical -- and I would argue that the law, and maybe accounting, fall in this area.

Let's take a simple case -- traffic laws. Traffic laws are generally pretty simple. If you are going faster than the posted speed limit, you are speeding period. But what if you are going slower then the posted speed limit, but the weather, or other conditions, still make it unsafe to drive. Should the police be able to stop you for travelling at a legal, but unsafe, speed? Society says yes, so in addition to the clear, unambiguous speed limit, we have a more "grey" basic speed law, and more "grey" rules as to how to apply it, and how to defend against it. We create a "Grey" rule to make the law flexible, although it increases the complexity.

We could have a trademark law that says nobody can use any trademark without permission from the trademark holder. This would be simple -- you either have permission or not. But then, how would you be able to resell something you purchased? So, we add in flexibility, like first sale, and that adds complexity.

I guess we could go the other way and say that first sale trumps all of a trademark holder's rights -- but then nobody would bother with trademark anyway, and this whole area of law would go away. A simple rule, but maybe it doesn't result in the result we want.

Simple rules are inflexible -- that's the problem with a simple system.

Also I do speak of the court in very broad terms. Criminal court, oddly enough, even though I can walk into court and present my own case I stil wouldn't win. I would gget slammed with the dream team pounding me.
Why? And what "dream team." If you were charged with a crime, you would go up against the District Attorney or his or her assistants. No "dream team" there, just a few attorneys that work for the state.

The burden of proof is much higher in criminal cases than in civil cases, which works to the defendant's advantage.

Like I said, is the court system perfect? No. But I don't think it's anywhere near as messed up as you seem to think it is.
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
I feel the way I do because I know I am in the right regarding selling, maybe not so much in regards to advertising and I have no problems changing it so say anything needed.
Are you sure about that? Would you be willing to removing every reference to the company's name and model? Because that's what you may be forced to do.

But more to my point is that If served with that suit for the boats I would ahev just changed the name and asked for forgiveness.
Why? What if the name appeared perfectly legitimate under the law at the time? Would you have just rolled over?
 

lowenstat

Member
Come on. You can't be telling me this. We all know that the names are too similar.

This does bring up something interesting about these forums.

Way off topic but what the heck. Read the entire post before you reply so you understand that I am not angry, just fascinated by what I am about to talk about.

------------------
If I came in here saying I want to use or keep Sleekcraft as the name everyone including non attorneys, and me, would be saying you are are going to get nailed. You cant argue that (even if you are going to try to).

But now that I am here say that guy is guilty and judge is wrong you are still taking the other side or at least saying no no no. lol

And this brings me to the point of this message about the forums, all of them, not just this one which I happen to like. Why are you (or any attorney) allowed or feel free to argue about the opposite side of the cases or how the other side can slam us but you wont do that for our case as strongly? I may not have explained this as clear as one could to drive home the point but there is something very true about it and even worse is that it keeps people from working together for the posters purpose instead of just highlighting contrary points against the poster.

My goals are this this and this. If we could have a much better forum experience it would be posts of what I can look into and see if that would help win the case, etc, etc. Lists of things that can be done and possibly hamper their progress in court.

All attorneys know this stuff. It is a game. Why not team together a bit more instead explaining so much about what the other side can do and post ideas on how the poster seeking help can win.

I know am I am not making this point clear. It is very difficult to explain but I have seen it all over forums for decades. And let me make sure you know I accept it and not complaining so don’t worry.

Let me say it this way: The best way for me to find out what things I can do and have people actually help me win my case with true inside knowledge it to log in and post as the other side. It is very true. I have learned so much about what the company x can do and far less about what person y should do - accept get an attorney, which is fine. It is true. I have a complete strategy as company x already. As company x I have been told what to do, the areas I will win most likely and all about how person x is going to be in trouble. Company x (lets say the other side) comes out far ahead then the person y if they are the poster. It has nothing to do with being a company. It has to do with the fact that attorneys wont give advice to the poster asking for help but will give advice to someone/thing that you think doesn't exist in the virtual space here. And I do know why. No problem at all for me. I agree with the way. Too bad it is like this though. There is something strangely silly about it though.

The reason I bring this up is because it is always fascinated me and is a strange lop sided system. Now, I am very aggressive and will get the posts I need for it takes a lot longer.

Fact: You feel free to tell me what the otehr side can do against me but stray away from telling me anything to do. This is not exactly correct however so I don’t want to make it seem like its 100 against 1.

Do you see what I mean? If I am company x then you have helped me far greater. And I appreciate it.

And if you do not see or do not agree with what I am talking about then think of it this way: The forum attorneys talk about the facts for each side of any story. And this is what is good with forums. But they will not explain what the poster can do to win or what thet poster can do as a strategy, etc. We know that is true because you cant give advice to the poster!

Does this fascinate anyone else? It does me.
 
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divgradcurl

Senior Member
If I came in here saying I want to use or keep Sleekcraft as the name everyone including non attorneys, and me, would be saying you are are going to get nailed. You cant argue that (even if you are going to try to).

But now that I am here say that guy is guilty and judge is wrong you are still taking the other side or at least saying no no no. lol
You have misinterpreted what I said. What I said was, based solely on the published opinion, and not knowing the exact state of the law in 1979 , you can't say definitively that the lower court judge was wrong. That's it. Remember, Sleekcraft essentially created new law -- that's why we are still talking about it today.

And this brings me to the point of this message about the forums, all of them, not just this one which I happen to like. Why are you (or any attorney) allowed or feel free to argue about the opposite side of the cases or how the other side can slam us but you wont do that for our case as strongly? I may not have explained this as clear as one could to drive home the point but there is something very true about it and even worse is that it keeps people from working together for the posters purpose instead of just highlighting contrary points against the poster.
Believe it or not, this is what we do. When I am working with a client to evaluate a case, I am pointing out all of the flaws, and weak points, where we are going to lose, the arguments the other side can make, etc. I am essentially an advocate for the other side. Sure, I am an advocate for my client in public, but I am an advocate essentially against my client in private. Yes, I have to know my client's case to be able to advise them, but in litigation -- which is what I do -- I need to know what the other side is going to do, so I know what weak points I need to short up to protect my client, and what weak points the other side has that I can exploit.

So a lot of what goes on in this forum is just what lawyers do. That said, I tend to agree that a lot of people tend to jump in here and tell people what they can't do. But remember, too, relatively few posters on this site are attorneys, so who knows why they answer questions the way they do -- I can only speak for myself.

My goals are this this and this. If we could have a much better forum experience it would be posts of what I can look into and see if that would help win the case, etc, etc. Lists of things that can be done and possibly hamper their progress in court.
Here is the thing. Based on limited information, it is oftentimes possible to predict what the other side will do in a general fashion. A poster who comes on this board, however, is usually looking for specific information -- general information is less helpful. I can't give you specific information, both because of the attorney-client issues that come into play, and because it simply isn't possible to give good advice without knowing ALL of the facts. I don't give any rough advice to my clients either -- I gather all of the facts, do the research, apply the law to the facts, and THEN give an opinion. I can't do that on this board -- I can't gather facts, and there isn't anyone here that is going to pay for the research.

Sure, for simple questions, sometimes you can give a pretty accurate answer. But for heavily fact-based stuff, like your question, it just isn't possible.

All attorneys know this stuff. It is a game. Why not team together a bit more instead explaining so much about what the other side can do and post ideas on how the poster seeking help can win.
See above. If you want this type of specific advice, hire a lawyer.

Let me say it this way: The best way for me to find out what things I can do and have people actually help me win my case with true inside knowledge it to log in and post as the other side. It is very true. I have learned so much about what the company x can do and far less about what person y should do - accept get an attorney, which is fine. It is true. I have a complete strategy as company x already. As company x I have been told what to do, the areas I will win most likely and all about how person x is going to be in trouble. Company x (lets say the other side) comes out far ahead then the person y if they are the poster. It has nothing to do with being a company. It has to do with the fact that attorneys wont give advice to the poster asking for help but will give advice to someone/thing that you think doesn't exist in the virtual space here. And I do know why. No problem at all for me. I agree with the way. Too bad it is like this though. There is something strangely silly about it though.
If you had been the other party seeking to sue someone for trademark infringement, you would have gotten the same type of general responses, just from a different perspective. In an earlier post, you asked me what I would sue you for -- I gave some examples of causes of action. But if roles were reversed, yeah, I could tell you which causes of action might apply, but I couldn't tell which ones WOULD apply without going deep into the facts, and researching the case law -- and that is not the purpose of this board

The reason I bring this up is because it is always fascinated me and is a strange lop sided system. Now, I am very aggressive and will get the posts I need for it takes a lot longer.

Fact: You feel free to tell me what the otehr side can do against me but stray away from telling me anything to do. This is not exactly correct however so I don’t want to make it seem like its 100 against 1.

Do you see what I mean? If I am company x then you have helped me far greater. And I appreciate it.

And if you do not see or do not agree with what I am talking about then think of it this way: The forum attorneys talk about the facts for each side of any story. And this is what is good with forums. But they will not explain what the poster can do to win or what thet poster can do as a strategy, etc. We know that is true because you cant give advice to the poster!

Does this fascinate anyone else? It does me.
 

lowenstat

Member
Did the defendant have to pay any fines, fees or attorney costs? I dont see where anything but a slight modification to the name was required.

Why is this? Is it because he was not willfull?

It seems that one is an injunction to stop or change behaviour. The other is penalty for meaning to do it? Makes sense if this is what happens.

Is it common for cases like this not to pay monetary damages for non-willfull cases?

If it was willfull, then what sample calculation might have gone into the case?

Assuming he sold 5000 boats using improper name equals? Attorney costs minimum for a case that goes to court? Other fees?

Anything other then the court filing fee of a few hundred dollars go to the court?
 

divgradcurl

Senior Member
Did the defendant have to pay any fines, fees or attorney costs? I dont see where anything but a slight modification to the name was required.

Why is this? Is it because he was not willfull?

It seems that one is an injunction to stop or change behaviour. The other is penalty for meaning to do it? Makes sense if this is what happens.

Is it common for cases like this not to pay monetary damages for non-willfull cases?

If it was willfull, then what sample calculation might have gone into the case?

Assuming he sold 5000 boats using improper name equals? Attorney costs minimum for a case that goes to court? Other fees?

Anything other then the court filing fee of a few hundred dollars go to the court?

Here's what I would recommend -- go to a law library, pick up a copy of McCarthy on Trademarks, and start browsing. This is the standard treatise for trademark law, you might find that you can get many of your answers from that reference.

http://west.thomson.com/store/product.aspx?product_id=13517594

Also, since you are in California, you might want to also check outy the Rutter Guide on 17200 actions, in case that crops up.

http://www.ruttergroup.com/cart17200.htm
 

lowenstat

Member
Thanks for the links.

If I could afford a set of books costing $2500 that I probably coudn't understand then I would not be here for discussion.

I realize you may not know all areas of the law or cases but everyone does enjoy the discussion and that is the purpose.

I bet I would really enjoy that first set of books though! Too bad it is impossible for me to sit in a library. Online is fine however.

I wonder if there exists a need for book rental delivery service named netbooks.com or bookbuster.com. I even think those would pass as trademarks without infringment.
 

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