SSI Question extremely important.

[clintad]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Oregon

I am in Oregon and receive SSI because I have a mental disability. I have started a business and my business is costing around 500 dollars a month to run (it is currently making zero profit and will make zero profit for the coming months). Currently I am over qualified for SSI because my assets are slightly over 2000 around 2200 dollars. My business deals with stocks and liquid assets as a financial business. It owns stocks, and option derivatives. It is a partnership LLC where I own a majority portion. I am afraid I will run out of money and be homeless as well as losing my business if I don't get SSI for at least the next few months until my business is going to make a profit. I staked everything on this to make it work but I am told I will have to give up SSI as well as health insurance. (I am mentally disabled and cannot keep a job) That is why I am starting my own finance business. I am going to be down to zero by the end of June at that time I hope my business can make a profit. Its really upsetting to hear of this since I am on so many medications myself and this is the first time I felt like I can make it on my own. If I don't get my medications I will have to be placed in a mental hospital where I will likely be for the rest of my life. Since I cannot function on my own I have autism even though I am cognitive caring for myself is not possible.

Do I have to count my business assets under my name even though they are part of the partnership and I cannot withdraw them due to a contract my business partner and I made.
Will I have to give up SS and health insurance?
Can I apply again if I get kicked?

 

[Janke]

1. Have you read the Red Book of Work Incentives about the SSI only work incentives? Do you know anything about those work incentives? Did you discuss any of this with SSA before you started?
2. Did you ever request a Plan For Achieving Self-Support (PASS)? If it was approved, SSA might disregard excess resources that are being held as part of the PASS. I think you should request a PASS.
3. Property essential for self support (not part of a PASS) can be excluded from resources in very specific, detail oriented circumstances.

https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0501130500 provides the overview of the policy. There is no simple answer and it will require an SSI claims rep to have time to study all the documents you submit.

I am a bit confused about how you, as an SSI recipient taking in $750 a month can afford to lose $500 a month in a business. Just in terms of cash flow, if you have no profit, what money do you use to live on if there is only $250 left after business expenses? This is further muddied by the fact that you are already in an LLC partnership as a majority partner. And I am not savvy enough to even understand how you expect to make a profit in this business. What service are you providing and why are people paying you money for it and what makes you think this business will generate enough money for you to live on, when up and coming? What role does the partner play and how much money does he/she put in and take out of the business? Are all the assets correctly titled as belonging to the business? Do you have totally separate financial records for your personal expenses and assets vs. business expenses and assets and can you prove all your allegations with paper evidence?

It is potentially possible for excess resources to be excluded as property essential for self support with or without a Plan For Achieving Self Support, but this is not a simple process. You may want to start by completing a form SSA 545 BK and finding out who is the PASS specialist in your area (may not be in your local office and it may take awhile -days or weeks - before they contact you). You should expect that you will be asked for multiple documents to support your statements, and you will have to keep meticulous records. And keep business and personal finances totally separate and titled correctly.

If the PASS is approved and the assets excluded, your estimated 2018 self-employment profit will be used in determining your SSI payments for the year. Good luck with an accurate estimate, but SSA must have a number to work with.

So if you get over this initial hurdle and are making a profit of $1600 a month, then SSI would be reduced to zero (earned income exclusion $1600 minus $65 divide by 2 gives over $750 in countable income) but you could still be on Medicaid under section 1619b if you meet all other SSI rules (although your state of residence may matter as well).

All very complex. Details matter. Answers are not simple. If you are determined to be ineligible for more than 12 months, you will be required to file a new claim and unfortunately, there is no guarantee that you would be approved on a new claim with your current medical evidence. And that claim would be processed the same as other claims; 60% denied on the initial ap. You want to avoid the requirement to file a new claim and want to remain on SSI for Medicaid under 1619b. That protects you, but (I repeat) IT IS NOT SIMPLE.

It will be next to impossible for SSA to pay you correctly for quite some time because your income is unpredictable. Plan on being either overpaid or underpaid for many months.

 

[clintad]

1. Have you read the Red Book of Work Incentives about the SSI only work incentives? Do you know anything about those work incentives? Did you discuss any of this with SSA before you started?
2. Did you ever request a Plan For Achieving Self-Support (PASS)? If it was approved, SSA might disregard excess resources that are being held as part of the PASS. I think you should request a PASS.
3. Property essential for self support (not part of a PASS) can be excluded from resources in very specific, detail oriented circumstances.

https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0501130500 provides the overview of the policy. There is no simple answer and it will require an SSI claims rep to have time to study all the documents you submit.

I am a bit confused about how you, as an SSI recipient taking in $750 a month can afford to lose $500 a month in a business. Just in terms of cash flow, if you have no profit, what money do you use to live on if there is only $250 left after business expenses? This is further muddied by the fact that you are already in an LLC partnership as a majority partner. And I am not savvy enough to even understand how you expect to make a profit in this business. What service are you providing and why are people paying you money for it and what makes you think this business will generate enough money for you to live on, when up and coming? What role does the partner play and how much money does he/she put in and take out of the business? Are all the assets correctly titled as belonging to the business? Do you have totally separate financial records for your personal expenses and assets vs. business expenses and assets and can you prove all your allegations with paper evidence?

It is potentially possible for excess resources to be excluded as property essential for self support with or without a Plan For Achieving Self Support, but this is not a simple process. You may want to start by completing a form SSA 545 BK and finding out who is the PASS specialist in your area (may not be in your local office and it may take awhile -days or weeks - before they contact you). You should expect that you will be asked for multiple documents to support your statements, and you will have to keep meticulous records. And keep business and personal finances totally separate and titled correctly.

If the PASS is approved and the assets excluded, your estimated 2018 self-employment profit will be used in determining your SSI payments for the year. Good luck with an accurate estimate, but SSA must have a number to work with.

So if you get over this initial hurdle and are making a profit of $1600 a month, then SSI would be reduced to zero (earned income exclusion $1600 minus $65 divide by 2 gives over $750 in countable income) but you could still be on Medicaid under section 1619b if you meet all other SSI rules (although your state of residence may matter as well).

All very complex. Details matter. Answers are not simple. If you are determined to be ineligible for more than 12 months, you will be required to file a new claim and unfortunately, there is no guarantee that you would be approved on a new claim with your current medical evidence. And that claim would be processed the same as other claims; 60% denied on the initial ap. You want to avoid the requirement to file a new claim and want to remain on SSI for Medicaid under 1619b. That protects you, but (I repeat) IT IS NOT SIMPLE.

It will be next to impossible for SSA to pay you correctly for quite some time because your income is unpredictable. Plan on being either overpaid or underpaid for many months.

I am living off of 200 a month and that is fine with me. I have been doing it for some time now. Though once my business gets profitable and that will be sometime around month three after launch. Our costs are small.
My business in general is a investment research company. Its started by me and two CFA's who both accepted to a 20% stake in the company. I am a dropout accountant I had to quit because of my mental health condition and because of some other medical issues also because I wasn't actually learning everything I already knew what they were teaching me and it was boring.

My business owns and operates its own portfolio of stocks as well as sells subscription research reports to our clients (among some other things as well). We expect once our business gets rolling that it will bring in around 1500 gross per week. That however is about a year out. Leaving me with after basic expenses of 253 monthly (LLC cost, Website cost, other basic expenses etc). Leaving me ultimately with around 2298 per month. All of witch is going back in the business. I will not take a paycheck from my business until it is generating at least 2500 a month for both of my co owners (this is also part of the contract). I will be working 12 hour days every day of the week until then with no compensation (Really only a few of those hours are actually productive because of my ability to concentrate is very limited to short bursts). Our business needs significant funds to be able to start. That is a promise no matter how terrible I have to live until then. My business accounts are kept tight so are my personal finances. I can tell you to the cent where my own money went for the last 3 years since I started keeping track. Its due to my autism that I can't function well in many places and it comes and goes sometimes it gets really bad other days its not so bad. Right now I am $87 dollars over qualified. And its really upsetting. In the past I have attempted suicide and been hospitalized for it multiple times. I don't really want my life to go that route again. Whats stopping me now is I have many physical symptoms of autism I have major amounts of tics and vocal tics as well as periods where I go into delusion. As for all of the business financials vs personal financials they are kept very separate and all the money for business is stored in business named bank accounts (the accounts have my name on them but belong to the business and the account is owned by the LLC not by me). I really don't want to be on SSI. I hate it. But right now there is no choice. I have to have money coming from somewhere.

 

[Janke]

You didn't answer my questions about understanding work incentives. These are laws that are designed to help you go back to the work force, but it is complex. You can figure out how to fit in if you work at it.

Please read the Red Book about work incentives, especially about a Plan For Achieving Self Support. I think it is a program that will fit you, but you need to figure out how to fit into the program too. It has some flexibility, but also requires great recordkeeping which sounds like you are good at. If approved, it would keep you on Medicaid which you know is worth the effort. It is a safety net that you need to use, don't try to make up your own.

Plan For Achieving Self Support.

https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/

https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0500870000

Complete the application. Show it to someone you trust for a critique. Find out the name and phone number of the SSA PASS specialist for your zip code. It can be modified if it becomes too cumbersome or you change your plans.

YOU SHOULD DO THIS.

 

[clintad]

You didn't answer my questions about understanding work incentives. These are laws that are designed to help you go back to the work force, but it is complex. You can figure out how to fit in if you work at it.

Please read the Red Book about work incentives, especially about a Plan For Achieving Self Support. I think it is a program that will fit you, but you need to figure out how to fit into the program too. It has some flexibility, but also requires great recordkeeping which sounds like you are good at. If approved, it would keep you on Medicaid which you know is worth the effort. It is a safety net that you need to use, don't try to make up your own.

Plan For Achieving Self Support.

https://www.ssa.gov/redbook/

https://secure.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/lnx/0500870000

Complete the application. Show it to someone you trust for a critique. Find out the name and phone number of the SSA PASS specialist for your zip code. It can be modified if it becomes too cumbersome or you change your plans.

YOU SHOULD DO THIS.

Thank you. I was not aware about PASS but after reading it, it seems very complicated and I will probably go see an attorney. My current attorney does not deal with this.
I don't understand why they have PASS it doesn't seem like it helps anyone if the rules are so complicated and I don't know if I would be able to maintain them. The record keeping is not a problem for me but other stuff might be. For the business plan that I have to submit I will have to look over all the points to make sure they are all on my business plan. (Also my company has to release a quarterly report as per benefit LLC requirements and to our own policy that I created). I will try and have this done by the end of this week since my income statements and bank notices are all due on Monday the 9th (I literally just learned I had to report my bank statements and panicked yesterday because I seen I was over resources by 80 dollars.) Another problem I see is that I have to have a job coach? Something that I don't feel is needed considering I am working closely with two CFA's and I have background in accounting and management of business. This is also not my first business.

Another question. I have a bill coming due this Wednesday for medical expenses medicare and my state health plan won't cover should I bring that in or is that not at all deductible? Its for 237 dollars.

 

[Janke]

Deductible??? From what??? SSI computations are not like income tax computations. If you read The Red Book, you could look up Impairment Related Work Expenses and see if it qualifies, but if you have excess resources, then IRWE is immaterial.

If you want to stay on Medicaid, you should seriously consider requesting a PASS. An approved PASS may get you all that you want. But you have to supply documents.

I didn't mean to scare you so much that you would give up, but it seemed that you were very detail oriented, methodical, and I thought you could handle it. It is easy to get overpaid while on SSI and trying to start a business, and I would like you to succeed without owing much money back to SSI.

If you want help with the PASS, I am sure you can find a vocational counselor or advocate that has familiarity with PASS and may be able to assist you.

No, you don't have to have a job coach. But many new business owners benefit from having a mentor. But PASS requires neither.