streams as property lines

[Ray Dove]

What is the name of your state? Ga. When the center line of creeks , rivers ,or streams are used as property line, does the center line of that stream always remain as line even as the stream changes it' course, or is the line the center of stream when property was surveyed? One side of my property has the center line of a creek as the boundry but over the last 20 years the course of the stream has changed, in some places adding a little to my parcel and in some places adding to my neighbors. In the state of Ga.what does the law say? Thanks, Ray Dove

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

What is the name of your state? Ga. When the center line of creeks , rivers ,or streams are used as property line, does the center line of that stream always remain as line even as the stream changes it' course, or is the line the center of stream when property was surveyed? One side of my property has the center line of a creek as the boundry but over the last 20 years the course of the stream has changed, in some places adding a little to my parcel and in some places adding to my neighbors. In the state of Ga.what does the law say? Thanks, Ray Dove

My response:

What does the law say about what? Boundary lines? Who owns the river? Where's your lunch? Hey, who's making dinner tonight? Want to go see the Coca-Cola Museum?

Since you didn't ask a specific question, I'll proffer a guess that under general concepts of law, landowners may have "riparian," "littoral" or "appropriative" rights to use the watercourse abutting their properties. These so-called "usufructuary" water rights, however, do not confer a right of private ownership in the abutting watercourse itself.

Check your deed for any restrictions or easements concerning the watercourse. You may also want to check your State Water Resources Board.

IAAL

 

[jimmler]

What is the name of your state? Ga. When the center line of creeks , rivers ,or streams are used as property line, does the center line of that stream always remain as line even as the stream changes it' course, or is the line the center of stream when property was surveyed? One side of my property has the center line of a creek as the boundry but over the last 20 years the course of the stream has changed, in some places adding a little to my parcel and in some places adding to my neighbors. In the state of Ga.what does the law say? Thanks, Ray Dove

I am not familiar with boundary law in Georgia, but if you call a registered surveyor in your area, they should be able to answer your question or point you to a real estate attorney that can. Have your deed description in hand when you call, you may have to give the surveyor or lawyer a copy of the description so they can answer your question.

I am not a lawyer, I have worked in surveying for 15 years.

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

I am not familiar with boundary law in Georgia, but if you call a registered surveyor in your area, they should be able to answer your question or point you to a real estate attorney that can. Have your deed description in hand when you call, you may have to give the surveyor or lawyer a copy of the description so they can answer your question.

I am not a lawyer, I have worked in surveying for 15 years.

My response:

Jimmler - - upon reading the OP's post, I get the sense that he's not necessarily asking about the boundary (property) lines, per se. The boundaries always remain the same; i.e., The "lines" do not "move" or "change" with the whim of the natural changes of the watercourse. The lines remain a constant.

Rather, from what I'm gathering from the totality of the OP's post is some concern that when the watercourse changes; e.g., when the river changes from one side of the boundary line to the other, does he have the same rights to the watercourse as he originally had, despite the directional changes of the watercourse.

The OP doesn't need information concerning boundaries - - he needs information concerning ownership and/or usage of the river in relation to the static boundaries; e.g., can he still use the river in those places where the river has changed it's course to flow on the other side of the boundary lines? That's what I'm gathering. However, the OP wasn't clear at all in this regard, which is what prompted my first paragraph.

IAAL

 

[Ray Dove]

Ga. Thanks to all who replied, and excuse my vagueism( is that a word?)To be more specific. My deed states" on the south, the center line of Holly Creek", in other words my south property line is the center line of the creek. Over the years the creek has moved slightly, in some places adding a little dry land to my property and in other places adding a little land to the property owner across the creek . I haven't seen his deed but I assume his deed also states his boundry is the center line of Holly Creek. He has recently had his property surveyed and yesterday I found a new pin on my side of the creek. It looks like the pin might be in the center of where the creek ran several years ago. So my question was whether the line always stays in the center of the creek despite it's slight course changes over time, or does the boundry remain where it was when first surveyed? Sorry for the confusion, any thoughts or facts will be appreciated. Ray Dove

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

Ga. Thanks to all who replied, and excuse my vagueism( is that a word?)To be more specific. My deed states" on the south, the center line of Holly Creek", in other words my south property line is the center line of the creek. Over the years the creek has moved slightly, in some places adding a little dry land to my property and in other places adding a little land to the property owner across the creek . I haven't seen his deed but I assume his deed also states his boundry is the center line of Holly Creek. He has recently had his property surveyed and yesterday I found a new pin on my side of the creek. It looks like the pin might be in the center of where the creek ran several years ago. So my question was whether the line always stays in the center of the creek despite it's slight course changes over time, or does the boundry remain where it was when first surveyed? Sorry for the confusion, any thoughts or facts will be appreciated. Ray Dove

My response:

Like I said, the creek does NOT define the property boundary lines. The "line" remains constant (the same) no matter what course the creek takes; i.e., "the boundry remains where it was when first surveyed."

Are you concerned about your "legal" usage of the creek even if it changes course? If so, I also addressed that issue in my above responses.

IAAL

 

[hoenave]

IAAL: I don't know about in GA, I am sure you are more familiar with the wide range of laws in other states, but in CA whatever the deed says is the boundry, is the boundry. So, if the deed says that the center of the creek is the boundry, and the creek moves, so does your lot line. My wife worked in the Title industry for years, and saw many cases of people loosing chunks of land because of descriptions like Ray's. She has even seen people loose chunks of land because they didn't build their fence right on the property line.

Again, this is CA, so GA may be different, but here in CA the lot line is exactly what the Grant/Waranty/Transfer deed says, even if it sound silly. It may be too late, but I would look into trying to work out a deal with your neighbor to redraw the lot line between your parcels to refernce a static land mark, such as the distance from the front of your lot, or a GPS value. Being that your neighbor has staked a ...er...stake in your lot, it may be too late for a friendly solution. It's worth a try though.

Either way, a local escrow company can tell give you an answer, as they deal with lot lines every day, and if you did get a lot line adjustment to a fixed reference, you would want to use an escrow company anyway.

 

[jimmler]

IAAL,

I also know that a boundary line can change with a stream depending on state law and the way the deed descriptions are written (It would depend on their deed description and the neighbors).

Also, a registered land surveyor would be the best person to ask this question, they are tested on state boundary law during the licensure process. Anything they can't answer they will defer to a real estate attorney.

Ray,
You may want to ask your question on www.rpls.com - it is a surveyors message board, there are a few Georgia surveyors on there that may be able to answer your question.

 

[jimmler]

IAAL: I don't know about in GA, I am sure you are more familiar with the wide range of laws in other states, but in CA whatever the deed says is the boundry, is the boundry. So, if the deed says that the center of the creek is the boundry, and the creek moves, so does your lot line. My wife worked in the Title industry for years, and saw many cases of people loosing chunks of land because of descriptions like Ray's. She has even seen people loose chunks of land because they didn't build their fence right on the property line.

Again, this is CA, so GA may be different, but here in CA the lot line is exactly what the Grant/Waranty/Transfer deed says, even if it sound silly. It may be too late, but I would look into trying to work out a deal with your neighbor to redraw the lot line between your parcels to refernce a static land mark, such as the distance from the front of your lot, or a GPS value. Being that your neighbor has staked a ...er...stake in your lot, it may be too late for a friendly solution. It's worth a try though.

Either way, a local escrow company can tell give you an answer, as they deal with lot lines every day, and if you did get a lot line adjustment to a fixed reference, you would want to use an escrow company anyway.

A licensed land surveyor is the only one that should perform a boundary adjustment. Even though title companies deal with titles every day, they are not licensed to perform boundary work. They would come in handy after the surveyor is done their work to get the deeds recorded.

 

[hoenave]

I wasn't suggesting that Ray try to get the title company to change his boundry. I was suggesting that they would be a source to get questions answered, and that if an adjustment was made, there should be a title and escrow company involved. You are certainly correct that the lot line would need to have a professional surveyor to do the surveying.

The other item for Ray to take into account is to decide which is more important, the acrage, or the use of the stream. If the lot line is left as the stream, in an extream situation, the poster could loose a great deal of acrage. If the lot line is changed to a static reference, a similar move of the stream in the other direction could result in the complete loss of use of the stream.

 

[Meursault]

This situation interested me so much I have been searching both the Georgia State Stautes and the Georgia Natural Resources sites for clarification and have found only a reference in the statutes to streams.

And as IAAL mentioned, this reference simply states that deeds and surveys utilizing streams, trees, natural boundaries and such remain with the natural boundary. There is also a very relevant case regarding South Carolina and Georgia wherein an entire island was 'granted' by the courts to South Carolina due to the shifting of the head waters of Savannah River .

George v. South Carolina, 497 U.S. 396 (1990)

 

[hoenave]

This situation interested me so much I have been searching both the Georgia State Stautes and the Georgia Natural Resources sites for clarification and have found only a reference in the statutes to streams.

And as IAAL mentioned, this reference simply states that deeds and surveys utilizing streams, trees, natural boundaries and such remain with the natural boundary. There is also a very relevant case regarding South Carolina and Georgia wherein an entire island was 'granted' by the courts to South Carolina due to the shifting of the head waters of Savannah River .

George v. South Carolina, 497 U.S. 396 (1990)

You got that backwards. IAAL said that deeds and surveys do NOT follow the natural boundary.

 

[jimmler]

I wasn't suggesting that Ray try to get the title company to change his boundry. I was suggesting that they would be a source to get questions answered, and that if an adjustment was made, there should be a title and escrow company involved. You are certainly correct that the lot line would need to have a professional surveyor to do the surveying.

[Okay, point taken. However, I do contend that the more qualified person to answer a boundary question is a land surveyor.]


The other item for Ray to take into account is to decide which is more important, the acrage, or the use of the stream. If the lot line is left as the stream, in an extream situation, the poster could loose a great deal of acrage. If the lot line is changed to a static reference, a similar move of the stream in the other direction could result in the complete loss of use of the stream.

Very good point.

 

[Ray Dove]

Thanks again to all who offered advice. I talked to a registered surveyor in Ga. and he answered my question. In Ga. the property line changes with the stream as long as the change is an "act of God" and not a man made change as in dams, trenches,etc. So when there are naturally occuring changes by floods, droughts, etc. and the stream actually changes course, the property line will change also.( if the deed states that the line is the midpoint of the stream). Thanks again to all. Ray Dove