Tenant Countersuing

[fburke]

What is the name of your state? MA

I am suing my tenant for $1500.00 due to a fire cause by her leaving items on a brand new stoveshe left in self cleaning cycle and leaving the unit unattended (she left the unit) she also had removed the batteries from the smoke detectors I assum to put in her remote controls because the brand that I found in them was the same brand the cable company uses and I used a different brand when I installed them in September.

Now she is counter suing me for $1400.00, she says I installed the stove illegally, and she didn’t have an oven for a month, so she wants me to reimburse her for a months rent, and other personal property damage.

The reason she didn’t have an oven for a few weeks was because I had to install an entire heating system and it took a few weeks to do she seemed to be understanding at the time and the cook top worked fine she could cook food just not use the oven.

the only time se was out of the unit was for 3 days after the fire while i hade the unit cleaned and i primned she finished the painting.

I have the gas permit from the plumber and it was inspected as part of a new heating system install and I have a fire report from the local fire department blaming her( the tenant).

Any input on this? I just don’t want both cases to be dismissed as to say you drop yours I drop mine. I think this is the reaction she wants.

I think my case is solid, I think hers is a little flimsy I’m just curious to see what the courts say.

 

[Cvillecpm]

You need evidence from the FD fire report on the cause and subpeona the FD inspector to court if needs be - you can ALWAYS get an attorney and kick this to a higher level which may blow her out of the water with any counter claim.

Go to court a few times and see the procedures and how judges handle cases. Good Luck

 

[Alaska landlord]

Ignore her and continue with your suit. Why haven't you evicted her yet?

 

[fburke]

Ignore her and continue with your suit. Why haven't you evicted her yet?

I haven’t evicted her yet for 2 reasons.

1) Other than this incident she has been a good tenant and even with this going on she has paid rent and been respectable.

2) To evict her would cost more money that I would rather not spend at this point. If she did stop paying that I would have no choice to evict.

I am considering NOT renewing her lease at the end of the term in September. I think it will depend on how this plays out. I know I can’t use this dispute as a reason to evict if I win in court that I could use her lease against her, but if I loose then I have no grounds to evict.

 

[ecmst12]

Not having a working oven does NOT make the apt uninhabitable. The most you could owe her for is the 3 days she couldn't stay there - much outweighed by what she owes you.

 

[xylene]

What is the name of your state? MA

I am suing my tenant for $1500.00 due to a fire cause by her leaving items on a brand new stoveshe left in self cleaning cycle and leaving the unit unattended (she left the unit)

Prove that was negligent and you have a case.

Self cleaning ovens are designed to NOT require any attention during operation. Nor should they ever reach ignition temperature outside of the oven under normal operation.

It will really depend on what the items were.

If ordinary kitchen items caught fire from the ovens normal operation (and self cleaning is normal operation) then the stove had malfunctioned, and that is not the tenants fault.

Self cleaning ovens cycles often result in fires, and this is why many apartments do not have them.

she also had removed the batteries from the smoke detectors I assum to put in her remote controls because the brand that I found in them was the same brand the cable company uses and I used a different brand when I installed them in September..

Totally irrelevant. You should consider installing hardwired smoke alarms that ring locally and connect to a central panel.

 

[Alaska landlord]

haven’t evicted her yet for 2 reasons.

1) Other than this incident she has been a good tenant and even with this going on she has paid rent and been respectable.

2) To evict her would cost more money that I would rather not spend at this point. If she did stop paying that I would have no choice to evict.

I am considering NOT renewing her lease at the end of the term in September. I think it will depend on how this plays out. I know I can’t use this dispute as a reason to evict if I win in court that I could use her lease against her, but if I loose then I have no grounds to evict.

I am not familiar with the laws of MA, but depending on the wording of your lease and state laws, you may have a case for eviction based on gross negligence and failure to pay for the damages.

Taking out the batteries is relevant as it could have alerted other tenants of a possible fire and the fire department could have been called much earlier.

You can renew her lease if you want, but most LL’s would either ask her to move at the end of the lease or leave her on as a month to month tenant. There is little to gain from having a hostile tenant on your property ready to sue at the first opportunity.

 

[ecmst12]

Prove that was negligent and you have a case.

Self cleaning ovens are designed to NOT require any attention during operation. Nor should they ever reach ignition temperature outside of the oven under normal operation.

It will really depend on what the items were.

If ordinary kitchen items caught fire from the ovens normal operation (and self cleaning is normal operation) then the stove had malfunctioned, and that is not the tenants fault.

Even if the oven was defective or malfunctioning, it was still negligent for her to LEAVE THE HOUSE with it on. Had she been home, and had she had functioning smoke detectors, the fire would have been found and likely extinguished much sooner, causing much less damage. So she's still at fault.

 

[xylene]

Even if the oven was defective or malfunctioning, it was still negligent for her to LEAVE THE HOUSE with it on. Had she been home, and had she had functioning smoke detectors, the fire would have been found and likely extinguished much sooner, causing much less damage. So she's still at fault.

We leave heat generating appliances on ALL THE TIME.

Pilot lights, etc.

No one would say a furnace fire was negligent if it occurred when not home.

An oven is not supposed to get hot enough to start a fire, even in self cleaning mode. That is part of their basic safe design. It isn't that we must babysit them to prevent fires.

Now if the tenant had set a down quilt on top of the stove and jammed it in the vent, well thats a slam dunk.

But if the stove ignited some normal kitchen items... hardly a slam dunk. The tenant will have defense that the stove was defective, will raise it, and unless the landlord has PROOF otherwise, the landlord will not meet his burden of proof.

The reality is the landlord will have to PROVE the negligence, if any. Not simply assert it. Show me a manual that says the stove must be attended at all times when on. Show me clause in the lease or in the law about tampering with the smoke detectors. Show proof the tenant did tamper with them. Show me proof it would have mattered.

1500 dollars is not a large fire.

 

[Alaska landlord]

Show me clause in the lease or in the law about tampering with the smoke detectors. Show proof the tenant did tamper with them. Show me proof it would have mattered.

1500 dollars is not a large fire.

How about if OP just showed you a fire departments report? Only an idiot would would leave a stove on and take off, even in a self clean mode.

 

[xylene]

How about if OP just showed you a fire departments report? Only an idiot would would leave a stove on and take off, even in a self clean mode.

Fire department reports are evidence. Not a legal finding.

He has not mentioned any reports.

Something being unwise does not prove negligence or establish liability.

I'm actually trying to help this landlords case by being critical so he can develop proper evidence.

You suggest it will be easy. Wrong. The tenant has several avenues of defense. The most important being that stoves when used and functioning properly do not start fires.

Even if left alone. The fact that she left it unattended is tangential. It is not the crux of the tenants negligence, if any.

 

[acmb05]

Fire department reports are evidence. Not a legal finding.

He has not mentioned any reports.

Ummmm Original post, fifth paragraph

 

[acmb05]

What is the name of your state? MA

I am suing my tenant for $1500.00 due to a fire cause by her leaving items on a brand new stoveshe left in self cleaning cycle and leaving the unit unattended (she left the unit) she also had removed the batteries from the smoke detectors I assume to put in her remote controls because the brand that I found in them was the same brand the cable company uses and I used a different brand when I installed them in September.

Won't matter if she removed them or not. She could easily say they were never in there and you have no proof they were.

Now she is counter suing me for $1400.00, she says I installed the stove illegally, and she didn’t have an oven for a month, so she wants me to reimburse her for a months rent, and other personal property damage.

Did you? Did you get all permits you were supposed to? Was it done by a certified licensed contractor?

The reason she didn’t have an oven for a few weeks was because I had to install an entire heating system and it took a few weeks to do she seemed to be understanding at the time and the cook top worked fine she could cook food just not use the oven.

1400.00 bucks for lack of an oven is rediculous.

the only time she was out of the unit was for 3 days after the fire while i had the unit cleaned and i primed she finished the painting.

I have the gas permit from the plumber and it was inspected as part of a new heating system install and I have a fire report from the local fire department blaming her( the tenant).

What exactly is on that report. If it states a rag or something was left on the cook top then she would be negligent for the fire.

Any input on this? I just don’t want both cases to be dismissed as to say you drop yours I drop mine. I think this is the reaction she wants.

I think my case is solid, I think hers is a little flimsy I’m just curious to see what the courts say.

A judge would not do that, that is something you would work out before court. He is going to look at all the evidence presented to him and determine who is at fault.

Since most stoves now are designed so that the self cleaning vents threw one of the eyes on the top of the stove then that eye can get rather hot and could start a rag on fire. If that is what the fire department report states then she will most likely be found negligent and have to pay for all damages.

If on the other hand the stove was not vented right and that is what caused the excessive heat then you could be found partially or fully negligent

 

[fburke]

Yes I have all permits, the stove was installed by a Licensed Master Plumber and it was inspected by the city plumbing inspector.

The Fire reports states “Items left on top of the stove ignited from the heat of the self cleaning cycle”. Fire report also states tenant admitted to fire chief to removing batteries from smoke detectors due to smoke from the self cleaning mode, however the smoke was caused by a wooden knife block and large candle that was left on top of the stove blocking the heat vent.”

I also have an inspection report from September and all fire alarms and CO2 devices were tested and working.

 

[OHlandlord]

If the tenant left a candle over the heat vent on the stove, this was not a defective oven. The heat probably melted the candle. If it was in a glass container, the heat may have cracked it and it poured into the hot oven. If in no container, it would have dripped into and onto the stove itself very quickly. Paraffin is flammable at high temperatures. At 473 degrees F. it will auto-ignite. It's flash point is 455 degrees F in an open container. In a self cleaning cycle, the oven heats to about 900 degrees F. No doubt this is what caused the fire.