Testing my daughter for teacher's lack of interest

[Dotticl]

What is the name of your state? PA

My daughter is in 8th grade. We had met with her "team" of core teachers for her lack of progress. We discussed several options, one being having her placed in pre-algebra rahter than algebra and her teacher said he thought she could do the work. This marking period she was down 10 points in her grade and is also failing her other 3 core subjects. We have studied with her and tried to have the teachers at least post on the school website or email us her projects and due dates. Only 1 teacher has done that and the others don't have the time and one actually told us they didn't think she would catch up at this point and don't have time for her.

I thought my paying school taxes was supposed to have them "make time" to motivate her. Now they want to test her and to see how where she is (she has done well on the PSAA) and how we (her parents) interact with her.

Do I need a lawyer to go with me at this point?

 

[cmorris]

Why isn't your child doing the school work? Is it too difficult, too boring, or does she just not want to do it? What kind of motivation do you expect from the teachers? There is information missing.

Without an Individual Education Plan, I doubt the teachers HAVE to tell you specifically all of the assignments. That is probably why they want to test her. Besides, they want HER to do the assignment, not you. Why is there no accountability on the part of the child? She is in 8th grade, not 2nd. And the teachers probably do not have to accept late work, hence one of the teacher's comments.

Why get an attorney involved? What has the school/teachers done illegally? They can't force your child to do homework. If they make an exception for her, then other parents complain about homework. Without homework, the students understand less and perform poorly.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but your post implies that she is just lazy. How have you tried to "motivate" her? How have you tried to help (e.g., set homework time and place, planner, etc)? If she doesn't do her homework, do you blame the teachers (sounds like it), or do you punish her?

 

[stealth2]

I also have to ask why your daughter isn't being held responsible for making sure work is done & handed in in a timely manner? She should be the one who is doing the hard work. For example, getting her planner signed by each of her teachers to show that all assigned work is written in it. Then you would check it every night and sign that it's all been done. I suspect her teachers would be more enthusiastic about helping her if she showed some initiative herself - but why should she if Mommy & Daddy aren't going to make her take responsibility? Most people meet only the expectations others hold for them - raise the bar a bit.

 

[skimdlt]

I believe the point is the child is not doing the work. And to insist she become more motivated and self directed, only contributes to her not doing well - whatever her motives. If you want to find out what her motives are you don't start by testing her, and finding out how the family is contributing to her demotivation.

Why not assume the teacher is there to teach and help the student achieve, instead of on insisting to conforming to standards that are not for everyone.

Imagine now the demotivation as she keeps failing.

When a simple action, such that ALL teachers to produce upcoming monthly or weekly work schedules for students; could help any students not fall behind.

WHERE IS THE COMMON SENSE OF WORKING TO THE NEEDS OF THE CHILD AND NOT THE TEACHER!!!

Maybe THAT would be the FIRST start to decreasing the drop-out rate.

Again, to the parent above, if you want to create change it must be a change you can create for everyone. The homework schedule is an excellent idea, keep pushing it at a national level for all students.

 

[Silverplum]

I believe the point is the child is not doing the work.
(snip)
When a simple action, such that ALL teachers to produce upcoming monthly or weekly work schedules for students; could help any students not fall behind.
WHERE IS THE COMMON SENSE OF WORKING TO THE NEEDS OF THE CHILD AND NOT THE TEACHER!!!
(snip)
The homework schedule is an excellent idea, keep pushing it at a national level for all students.

You had it right at first, but then slid onto blaming the teacher. Why on earth should teachers post daily homework on the internet so that the PARENTS can look up the homework at home? Don't teachers have enough to do??

Place the responsibility upon the STUDENT to keep track of their own homework, at school and at home.

Sheesh.

 

[stealth2]

Thank you for articulating my thoughts, Silverplum. That's pretty much where I was coming from, too.

Interestingly enough, I'm going through a similar problem, albeit on a smaller scale. My straight A 7th grader brought home a D in a core academic course this quarter - for incomplete and missing work. Before he even got home, I was on the phone to schedule a conference between the three of us. Not to whine, moan or bitch, but to come up with a game plan that makes the kid responsible for making sure things are completed/handed in on time. I'd like the teacher on board as I need her assistance in signing off that he's done what he needs to do in class. But in no way do I expect her to go above and beyond that. My son's 13 - old enough to step up to the plate and take responsibility. He moaned a bit about how embarrassing it will be for him to miss a class (Health - big whoop) for a conference - too bad.

And before I get comments about what a Type A bitch I am, riding my kids for better grades, they both know that I do hold the bar high - because I know what they're capable of. But when I see them working hard and doing the best that they can - I accept the grade they get, whether it's an A or a D. When they decide to fart around - the hammer comes down.

hehehe Of course, my son knows the worst consequence is going to be explaining this to his father this weekend. Which he's gonna have to do no matter how much I smooth the way beforehand. I don't envy him one bit.

 

[Silverplum]

ITA, Stealth. IT-freakin'-A.

 

[skimdlt]

Snip: "Not to whine, moan or bitch, but to come up with a game plan that makes the kid responsible for making sure things are completed/handed in on time. I'd like the teacher on board as I need her assistance in signing off that he's done what he needs to do in class."

If I understand what you are saying is that you want to teach your child to be responsible. Yet in the same paragraph you mention you need to meet with the teachers and need their help in "signing off that he's done what he needs to do in class".

Don't you find this a contradiction to your moral helm?

"Before he even got home, I was on the phone to schedule a conference between the three of us."

The point is 20-30% of students are dropping out. Expenses in the failure to produce responsible, educated, productive adults fall on the taxpayers, families and society as a whole. So my point is that "systems" don't serve their purpose when they insist on working-to-rule, rather than working to need.

Not all students keep track of their homework. You can insist they have to, but they don't. Finding a schedule on the internet or in their school bags (if they remember to bring it home) can help them.

Disappointingly, due to unions and work-to-rule, it needs to be made part of a teachers job description first, otherwise, hey 'its not their problem'. So go it at the National level as I mentionned.

boy: Help!!!

response: Sorry can't help you.

boy: Why not?

response: Because you can do it. (permission granted by ?% of society bcs confirms it works for their kids; and unions rules; work-to-rule)

boy: I can't do this, throw in some floaters. (if granted: can be used temporarily until he learns to swim)

response: You'll have to try harder.

boy: Help, I'm drowning.

response: I'm sure if you try harder you'll learn to swim!!

I had a cousin that nearly drowned that way. The teacher kept telling him he could do it. He had to dive in after him and give him mouth to mouth. Darn, he feared water for years, but hey, blame the kid, or maybe the family because they hadn't taught him to swim sooner. Keep shaking your head while the child's drowning, saying if the parent would have brought him when he was younger, or he can do it... yada yada yada

The problem with school, when you try pulling them out, its too late, they can't make up for everything they've lost (academic material and social; self-esteem...) They've drowned, and as I see it, the parent has been wailing her hands, yelling out for help, everyone else has stood by.

As I've written elsewhere (so sorry to those who have already read this)
---------------------------------------------------
From “Teacher Quality”, Lance T. Izumi & Williamson M. Evers, 2002

…”average real spending per pupil has increased by more than 75 percent, that is, by three-quarters after allowing for inflation. But if we look at student performance on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, we see that performance is virtually unchanged in math and reading and has fallen in science. This is hardly what the proponents of increased resources suggest should have happened.” (p.6)

The cumulative and residual effects of teachers on the academic progress of students are huge. (p.18) Students unfortunate enough to encounter two or more ineffective teachers in sequence show measurably retarded growth. (p.22)

[…] “The TVAAS [Tennessee Value-Added Assessment System] database contains approximately six million student achievement test records from 1991 to the present. The individual student information was linked to specific teachers in 1994, allowing estimation of teacher effectiveness…” “Many research findings from the TVAAS, replicated by other researchers, are pertinent to the issue of teacher quality…” (p.15)

• The effect of teachers can be separated from ethnic, socioeconomic, and parental influences. (4)
• The variability of teacher effectiveness increases across grades and is most pronounced in mathematics. (5)
• In the extreme, fifth-grade students experiencing highly ineffective teachers in grades three through five scored about 50 percentile points below their peers of comparable previous achievement who were fortunate enough to experience highly effective teachers for those same grades.(6)
• A teacher’s effect on student achievement is measurable at least four years after students have left the tutelage of that teacher. (7)
• When a student has experienced an ineffective teacher or a series of ineffective teachers there is little evidence of a compensatory effect provided by experiencing more effective ones in later years. (8)
• Regardless of ethnicity, children of similar previous achievement levels tend to respond similarly to an individual teacher. (9)
• Teachers who are relatively ineffective tend to be ineffective with all student subgroups across the prior achievement spectrum, whereas teachers who are highly effective tend to be very effective with all student subgroups across the same spectrum. (10)
• The effect of the teacher far overshadows classroom variables, such as previous achievement level of students, class size as it is currently operationalized, heterogeneity of students, and the ethnic and socioeconomic makeup of the classroom.(12)
• In the extreme, for students scoring in the lowest quartile in fourth-grade math, the probability of passing an eighth-grade-level test (required for high school graduation) ranged from 15 to 60 percent as a function of the sequence of teachers and how effective they were. Students in this achievement group experiencing four teachers of average effectiveness had a 38 percent probability for passing the test.(13)

(4) D.A. Harville, “A Review of the Tennessee Value-Added Assessment System (TVAAS)” (manuscript, Iowa State University, 1995); H.R. Jordan, R.L. Mendro, & D. Weerasinghe, “Teacher Effects on Longitudinal Student Achievement” (paper presented at the National Evaluation Institure, Indianapolis, Ind., 1997); William L. Sanders & S. Horn, “Educational Assessment Reassessed: The Usefulness of Standardized and Alternative Measures of Student Achievement as Indicators for the Assessment of Educational Outcomes: in Educational Policy Analysis Archives 3, no. 6; Sanders, Saxton, and Horn, “Tennessee Value-Added Assessment System” (5) University of Tennessee Value-Added Research and Assessment Centre, Graphical Summary of Educational Findings from the Tennessee Value-Added Assessment System (TVAAS) 1995 (Knoxville: University of Tennessee Value-Added Research and Assessment Centre, 1995). (6) Jordan, Mendro, and Weerasinghe, “Teacher Effects”; William L. Sanders and June C. Rivers, “Cumulative and Residual Effects of Teachers on Future Student Academic Achievement: Research Progress Report: (Knoxville: University of Tennessee Value-Added Research and Assessment Center, 1996) (7) June C. Rivers-Sanders, “The Impact of Teacher Effect on Student math Competency Achievement” (Ed.D. diss., University of Tennessee, 1999); Sanders and Rivers, Cumulative and Residual Effects of Teachers. (8) Sanders and Rivers, Cumulative and Residual Effects of Teachers (9) Sanders and Rivers, Cumulative and Residual Effects of Teachers (10) Sanders and Rivers, Cumulative and Residual Effects of Teachers (12) S.P. Wright, S.P. Horn, and William L. Sanders, “Teachers and Classroom context Effects on Student Achievement: Implications for Teacher Evaluation” in Journal of Personnel Evaluation in Education 11, no.1, 57-67 (13) June C. Rivers-Sanders, “Impact of Teacher Effect on Math Achievement
---------------------------------------------------

Henderson (1989) “shows us a study that shows what happens to children's self-esteem in an environment of public schools. Of 224 home schooled children, John Wesley Taylor V found that home-schooled children scored at or above the 91st percentile mark on the Piers- Harris Children's self-concept Scale, (a measure of self esteem). In another study, public school children lose their sense of self-worth dramatically as they progress through the grades from 80% with a strong sense of self-worth at school entrance dropping to 20% by fifth grade and to 5% at twelfth grade.” (<http://www.ontariohomeschool.org/oacas3.html>)

So empower the child; help them with what THEY need, before its too late. This does not mean a parent controlling a child, rather simply helping him/her get organized, with the teachers support.

 

[stealth2]

Snip: "Not to whine, moan or bitch, but to come up with a game plan that makes the kid responsible for making sure things are completed/handed in on time. I'd like the teacher on board as I need her assistance in signing off that he's done what he needs to do in class."

If I understand what you are saying is that you want to teach your child to be responsible. Yet in the same paragraph you mention you need to meet with the teachers and need their help in "signing off that he's done what he needs to do in class".

Don't you find this a contradiction to your moral helm?

Nope. It's making him feel a little pain - up to now he's been trusted to get his work done as necessary. Now he can't be - so there needs to be a process in place until he earns that trust back. He's got to get the work done and handed in, and then provide me with proof of it. That's all it is - proof.

 

[cmorris]

Now they want to test her and to see how where she is (she has done well on the PSAA)

The OP's statement suggests the child does not have an IEP, which would require modifications. Perhaps the girl has a learning disability, which the test could help determine. Without the IEP, the teachers do not have to make accomodations/modifications.

Your scenario is irrelevant. This girl needs to get tested to determine if there is a LD. If there is, she can get accomodations/modifications for that purpose. What Skim is suggesting is to DO the work for the child, instead of helping. I am student teaching right now and I have several students with IEP's. I still do not DO the work for them; I make modifications. I explain and follow their IEP's. But they must still do the work, otherwise they do not receive a grade.

If this girl does not have a LD for an IEP and is just lazy, that is her problem. She could keep up with assignments and do the work; why is there not accountability for those type of students? A parent-teacher conference is needed, but accomodations are not necessary. The student would just need to buckle down and do what is needed.

Bottom Line: Modifications and accomodations are necessary for students with learning problems (determined by testing). If a student does not have a learning problem, they need to learn to become self-sufficient and accountable for their actions.

 

[skimdlt]

Mom: send your request for a homework schedule in writing (registered/fedex) to the school, and to the school board.

Have your child tested outside the school system
a) for an objective viewpoint
b) for results to remain private
c) the psychologist could also visit the classroom and see the interactions that may be going on there, if that is necessary.
d) they will give you a detailed report (the school will not)

If money is a problem, you can call a University, either a psychological or educational department, they may have testing there.

What has your daughter mentionned may be the cause of this change?

 

[skimdlt]

Snip: "What Skim is suggesting is to DO the work for the child, instead of helping."

DO: would that be to sit down and complete the child's assignments?


Description of HELP (only a few from Webster's dictionary)
- to make more pleasant or bearable : IMPROVE, RELIEVE
- to further the advancement of
- to change for the better
- to give assistance or support
- to be of use or benefit
- a source of aid

In this case, and at this point it would be 'a source of aid'; as the parent mentions

a) her lack of progress
b) considering having her placed in pre-algebra
c) her failing 3 core subjects
d) and the fact that "they didn't think she would catch up at this point and don't have time for her".

Avoidable had the teachers 'helped' with a schedule sooner.


I know, teachers don't have to... force the child to be accountable...


Snip: "This girl needs to get tested to determine if there is a LD."

"In 2002, the U.S. President’s Commission on Excellence in Special Education report revealed the source of a deeply troubled Special Education system: 40% of kids are being labeled with “learning disorders” and placed in Special Education programs simply because they have not been taught to read. Of the approximate $50 billion spent annually on Special Education, $29 billion was spent for children labeled with subjective and unproven mental disorders." (Citizens Commission on Human Rights, http://www.cchr.org/topics/educators/index.htm)

Patricia Weathers was coerced into drugging her child, by school officials. After which, her child exhibited many bizarre behaviors. “I took him to the psychiatrist that the school recommended and based once again on school reports my son was diagnosed with social anxiety disorder and I was handed a prescription for an anti-depressant. I was never at any time made aware that the drug was not FDA approved for children under the age of 18. […] I picked up the phone and called a doctor located in Texas and scheduled an appointment. This doctor was known to treat children for the many underlying (real medical) causes of behavior and attention. The school, realizing that I was no longer going to drug my child, dismissed him, and then for a final blow preceded to call Child Protective Services on my husband and I.......charging us with medical neglect. That day when a case worker came to my door, my son would have been removed from my care had I not had a second private evaluation stating that he did not need ‘medication’.” (Patricia Weathers, President & Founder of AbleChild.org, State of New York, [email protected], http://ablechild.org/patricia.htm)


Snip: "If this girl does not have a LD for an IEP and is just lazy, that is her problem. She could keep up with assignments and do the work; why is there not accountability for those type of students? "

Where is the teachers and schools accountability? “school performance is more likely to produce self-perceptions than to follow from them. (School Experience & Status Attainment, Alexander & Eckland 1975)” (High School Underachievers, McCall, Evahn, Kratzer 1992)

"few students drop out because of social problems. Most of the problems are academic... when students begin failing courses, they don't see a way out in the time frame they want to get out of school. When they know they can't graduate with their class, they get discouraged and quit...” (http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm? BRD=2235&dept_id=439676&newsid=11270427&PAG=461&rfi=9)

An example of the cost of the 'system' failing its students in BC Canada:

From http://www.rewardsprogram.ca/dropout.html
- In 1999/2000, BC’s graduation rate was 75.3% (Ministry of Education Annual Report: July 1, 1999 to June 30, 2000, (http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/annualreport)
- These graduation rates include students who drop out and later return to complete their diploma, at an additional cost of $300 Million annually in British Columbia
- One in seven dropouts in BC is dependent upon welfare within a year and a half of dropping out, compared with one in fifty of those who graduate
- On average, drop-outs earn 20 percent less than high school graduates, with lost federal and provincial tax revenues of about $515 Million annually in BC alone
- 85% of income assistance expenditures in BC (Ministry spending of $2.2 Billion in 2001) go to high school dropouts
- 90 percent of criminal justice expenditures in BC (Ministry spending of $1.0 Billion in 2001) go to high school dropouts
(http://www.rewardsprogram.ca/dropout.html )



I think we may need more information as to what the parents believe their children need.


"Forward to parents, school boards/ministry, government... : We the parents believe that the quality of our childrens social and academic education in schools could be improved by adding school evaluation computer databases in our city libraries. This would permit the parents to 'vote' regularly increasing access to information for those regulating our childrens education, while giving the parents and its students a voice to their grievances or challenges of the present system. The quality of education or socialization a child is receiving could be assessed sooner, and changes if necessary also provided sooner. Contact your local, state and national authorities and ask for 'computer evaluation voting booths' that evaluate grievances both on a national level and specific to your schools." (http://www.geocities.com/npfsac/national_evaluations.html)