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HomeGuru

Senior Member
To Cvllecpm:

There is a thread titled Lead-based paint in VA by writer ejudy, that we are waiting for your response on.
 
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HomeGuru

Senior Member
Cvillecpm said:
Sorry...I don't see a question.

**A: I did not ask a question. I requested that you please clarify your position.
Read the entire thread, your responses and the responses by myself and JETX.
 
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Cvillecpm

Senior Member
HG....the Don't ask Don't tell (this is the legislature's short hand term for this law) on lead based paint is very real and discussing it with someone not active in L-T biz in the state is academic.

Needless to say, would-be rental property owners in Va, don't ask for the lead based paint testing at investment property purchase, hence, they don't have reliable information and therefore don't have to disclose to tenants....this option is on our rental disclosure form.

The requirement for signed disclosure (it has to be the tenant disclosure form and not the sale disclosure form that some subsequent poster linked to) and provision of the HUD/EPA updated booklet is not excused by Va state law.

HOWEVER, original poster, ejudy, indicated that the landlord "knew" and my response was unless the landlord had actual knowledge via certified testing process, she/ejudy has no case for this portion of her case against her landlord and it is doubtful that the missing disclosure and provision of the booklet would get her anywhere in VA....a more liberal state with agencies ready to pounce on this type of landlord behavior - maybe.

This VA law is being used in several other states as models for would-be legislation that would clarify the federal regulation and keep "hang your hat" tenant civil suits from clogging up the state's court system.

Hope this helps with clarification.
 

HomeGuru

Senior Member
Cvillecpm said:
HG....the Don't ask Don't tell (this is the legislature's short hand term for this law) on lead based paint is very real and discussing it with someone not active in L-T biz in the state is academic.

Needless to say, would-be rental property owners in Va, don't ask for the lead based paint testing at investment property purchase, hence, they don't have reliable information and therefore don't have to disclose to tenants....this option is on our rental disclosure form.

The requirement for signed disclosure (it has to be the tenant disclosure form and not the sale disclosure form that some subsequent poster linked to) and provision of the HUD/EPA updated booklet is not excused by Va state law.

HOWEVER, original poster, ejudy, indicated that the landlord "knew" and my response was unless the landlord had actual knowledge via certified testing process, she/ejudy has no case for this portion of her case against her landlord and it is doubtful that the missing disclosure and provision of the booklet would get her anywhere in VA....a more liberal state with agencies ready to pounce on this type of landlord behavior - maybe.

This VA law is being used in several other states as models for would-be legislation that would clarify the federal regulation and keep "hang your hat" tenant civil suits from clogging up the state's court system.

Hope this helps with clarification.

**A: JETX, I will give you the courtesy of responding first.
 

JETX

Senior Member
Cville: Lets cut to the chase.....

On another thread, you made several statements:
"VA is a "don't ask/don't tell" state. VA legislature enacted LAW that if landlord does not know, landlord does not have to disclose....they just have to provide booklet from EPA/HUD."

"landlord does not have to test or disclose unless they have first-hand knowledge of the danger. You may have to find proof that landlady knows and did not disclose to have a case."

"eventhough the property was pre-78, the landlord * UNDER THE FEDERAL RULES THAT ARE APPLICABLE IN VA* had no duty to disclose even if she knew of any lead paint. In VA, KNOWING = HAVING HAD IT TESTED which is why landlords "don't ask, don't tell""

Since your posts were obviously contrary to both state and federal laws, you were asked to prove your claims. You have 'danced and spun' around this but have not yet provided any proof of your claims, nor have you admitted that you were incorrect.

Simply, we are getting 'fed up' with your error-filled posts with no basis in fact.

So, ball is in your court.... either provide some support for your claims by providing a link to statute or cited caselaw..... or admit your error. Your failure to do one or the other, will result in your getting booted.

To help you, here is the applicable VA citation:
"State Lead-Paint Law: Va. Uniform Statewide Building Code, Vol. 11, §§ 1701, R224, PM 305.4;
Prohibits application of lead-based paint on any interior or exterior surface of a dwelling.

"Beginning September, 1996, landlords are required, by Federal law, to provide lead paint disclosure information to all present and future tenants. Leases or agreements must contain the following Lead Warning Statement:
Housing built before 1978 may contain lead based paint. Lead from paint, paint chips, and dust can pose health hazards if not taken care of properly. Lead exposure is especially harmful to young children and pregnant women. Before renting pre-1978 housing, landlords must disclose the presence of known lead-based paint hazards in the dwelling. Tenants must also receive a Federally approved pamphlet on lead poisoning prevention."
 

Cvillecpm

Senior Member
You got it......


§ 8.01-226.7. Owner and agent compliance with residential lead-based paint notification; maintenance immunity.

A. As used in this section, the following definitions apply:

"Agent" means any party who enters into a contract with a seller or lessor, including any party who enters into a contract with a representative of the seller or lessor, for the purpose of selling or leasing a residential dwelling. This term includes all persons licensed under Chapter 21 (§ 54.1-2100 et seq.) of Title 54.1. This term does not apply to purchasers or any purchaser's representative who receives compensation from the purchaser.

"Lead-based paint" means paint or other surface coatings that contain lead equal to or in excess of 1.0 milligram per square centimeter or 0.5 percent by weight.

"Lead-based paint hazard" means any condition that causes exposure to lead from lead-contaminated dust, lead-contaminated soil, or lead-contaminated paint that is deteriorated or present in accessible surfaces, friction surfaces, or impact surfaces that would result in adverse human health effects as established by the appropriate federal or state agency.

"Residential dwelling" means a structure or part of a structure that is used as a home or residence by one or more persons who maintain a household, whether single family or multifamily.

B. Any agent who has complied with the requirements of the United States Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act of 1992 (42 U.S.C. 4851 et seq.) shall not be liable for civil damages in any personal injury or wrongful death action for lead poisoning arising from the condition of a residential dwelling, provided that before the purchaser or tenant signs any contract to purchase or lease the residential dwelling:

1. An EPA-approved lead hazard information pamphlet was provided to the purchaser or lessee;

2. Any known lead-based paint and lead-based paint hazard on the property and any additional information or reports available to the owner concerning the same were provided to the purchaser or lessee;

3. The purchaser or tenant signed a written statement acknowledging the disclosure and receipt of the literature; and

4. If the agent is a public housing authority, it has complied with all applicable federal laws and regulations.

However, if the agent performs or agrees to perform lead-based paint maintenance on the residential dwelling or if the party, a purchaser or a lessee is instructed to contract for lead-based paint repairs, the agent shall not be entitled to immunity unless the agent has also met the requirements of subsection C of this section.

C. An owner of a residential dwelling, or agent responsible for the maintenance of a residential dwelling, who has complied with the requirements of the United States Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act of 1992 (42 U.S.C. 4851 et seq.) shall not be liable for civil damages in a personal injury or wrongful death action for lead poisoning arising from the condition of the residential dwelling, provided that before the purchaser or tenant signs any contract to purchase or lease the residential dwelling:

1. An EPA-approved lead hazard information pamphlet was provided to the purchaser or lessee;

2. Any known lead-based paint and lead-based paint hazard on the property and any additional information or reports available to the owner concerning same were provided to the purchaser or lessee;

3. The purchaser or tenant signed a written statement acknowledging the disclosure and receipt of the literature; and

4. With regards to lead-based paint and lead-based paint hazards, the residential dwelling was maintained in a fit and habitable condition and in compliance with the state laws and regulations, including but not limited to the Uniform Statewide Building Code, and applicable federal laws and regulations.

(2000, c. 1071.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:D
 

JETX

Senior Member
Another attempt to 'spin' and confuse....

Your offering only applies to an 'agent' not being liable for civil damages as long as the OWNER has complied with the law.
(And it doesn't even tell us where you pulled that 'rabbit' from!!)

The issue here is NOT an agent, but the agreement between a landlord and his tenant. Can you see the word LANDLORD in your statements??

So, you still haven't provided any support for your erroneous claims.... right??
Clock is ticking!!
 

HomeGuru

Senior Member
Cvillecpm said:
HG....the Don't ask Don't tell (this is the legislature's short hand term for this law) on lead based paint is very real and discussing it with someone not active in L-T biz in the state is academic.

**A: please post the link to the VA State website of the legislature that states the short hand term for the law is "Don't ask, don't tell."
*************
Needless to say, would-be rental property owners in Va, don't ask for the lead based paint testing at investment property purchase, hence, they don't have reliable information and therefore don't have to disclose to tenants....this option is on our rental disclosure form.

**A: so what. This statement has nothing to do with the Federal law requiring the disclosure form be given to the tenant.
**************

The requirement for signed disclosure (it has to be the tenant disclosure form and not the sale disclosure form that some subsequent poster linked to) and provision of the HUD/EPA updated booklet is not excused by Va state law.

**A: finally, you agree. Federal law supersedes VA State law anyway. ejudy stated in her post that L did not give her a disclosure statement or the booklet. That is why the L is guilty period.
*************
HOWEVER, original poster, ejudy, indicated that the landlord "knew" and my response was unless the landlord had actual knowledge via certified testing process, she/ejudy has no case for this portion of her case against her landlord and it is doubtful that the missing disclosure and provision of the booklet would get her anywhere in VA....a more liberal state with agencies ready to pounce on this type of landlord behavior - maybe.

**A: incorrect. If ejudy wanted to she could sue her L in both VA Federal and State courts just on the issue of L not providing the disclosure form and booklet. ejudy would still have a solid case even if the home contained no lead-based paint.
*************
This VA law is being used in several other states as models for would-be legislation that would clarify the federal regulation and keep "hang your hat" tenant civil suits from clogging up the state's court system.

Hope this helps with clarification.

**A: further evasive responses.
 
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HomeGuru

Senior Member
Cvillecpm said:
You got it......


§ 8.01-226.7. Owner and agent compliance with residential lead-based paint notification; maintenance immunity.

A. As used in this section, the following definitions apply:

"Agent" means any party who enters into a contract with a seller or lessor, including any party who enters into a contract with a representative of the seller or lessor, for the purpose of selling or leasing a residential dwelling. This term includes all persons licensed under Chapter 21 (§ 54.1-2100 et seq.) of Title 54.1. This term does not apply to purchasers or any purchaser's representative who receives compensation from the purchaser.

"Lead-based paint" means paint or other surface coatings that contain lead equal to or in excess of 1.0 milligram per square centimeter or 0.5 percent by weight.

"Lead-based paint hazard" means any condition that causes exposure to lead from lead-contaminated dust, lead-contaminated soil, or lead-contaminated paint that is deteriorated or present in accessible surfaces, friction surfaces, or impact surfaces that would result in adverse human health effects as established by the appropriate federal or state agency.

"Residential dwelling" means a structure or part of a structure that is used as a home or residence by one or more persons who maintain a household, whether single family or multifamily.

B. Any agent who has complied with the requirements of the United States Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act of 1992 (42 U.S.C. 4851 et seq.) shall not be liable for civil damages in any personal injury or wrongful death action for lead poisoning arising from the condition of a residential dwelling, provided that before the purchaser or tenant signs any contract to purchase or lease the residential dwelling:

1. An EPA-approved lead hazard information pamphlet was provided to the purchaser or lessee;

**A: ejudy was not provided this document, therefore L is liable for civil damages etc.
*************
2. Any known lead-based paint and lead-based paint hazard on the property and any additional information or reports available to the owner concerning the same were provided to the purchaser or lessee;

3. The purchaser or tenant signed a written statement acknowledging the disclosure and receipt of the literature; and

**A: ejudy did not recived the disclosure and literature, therefore she did not sign for same resulting in liability of L for civil damages.
*************
4. If the agent is a public housing authority, it has complied with all applicable federal laws and regulations.

However, if the agent performs or agrees to perform lead-based paint maintenance on the residential dwelling or if the party, a purchaser or a lessee is instructed to contract for lead-based paint repairs, the agent shall not be entitled to immunity unless the agent has also met the requirements of subsection C of this section.

C. An owner of a residential dwelling, or agent responsible for the maintenance of a residential dwelling, who has complied with the requirements of the United States Residential Lead-Based Paint Hazard Reduction Act of 1992 (42 U.S.C. 4851 et seq.) shall not be liable for civil damages in a personal injury or wrongful death action for lead poisoning arising from the condition of the residential dwelling, provided that before the purchaser or tenant signs any contract to purchase or lease the residential dwelling:

1. An EPA-approved lead hazard information pamphlet was provided to the purchaser or lessee;

2. Any known lead-based paint and lead-based paint hazard on the property and any additional information or reports available to the owner concerning same were provided to the purchaser or lessee;

3. The purchaser or tenant signed a written statement acknowledging the disclosure and receipt of the literature; and

4. With regards to lead-based paint and lead-based paint hazards, the residential dwelling was maintained in a fit and habitable condition and in compliance with the state laws and regulations, including but not limited to the Uniform Statewide Building Code, and applicable federal laws and regulations.

(2000, c. 1071.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:D
**A: see my comments above.
 

HomeGuru

Senior Member
JETX said:
Cville: Lets cut to the chase.....

**A: My comments:

On another thread, you made several statements:
"VA is a "don't ask/don't tell" state. VA legislature enacted LAW that if landlord does not know, landlord does not have to disclose....they just have to provide booklet from EPA/HUD."

**A: if L did not have testing done then there would be no knowledge of lead paint to disclose. Nothwithstanding, Federal law requires L to provide T a disclosure statement together with the booklet regardless of L's knowledge or lack thereof.
*************

"landlord does not have to test or disclose unless they have first-hand knowledge of the danger. You may have to find proof that landlady knows and did not disclose to have a case."

**A: ejudy would still have a case no matter what because of L's failure to provide her the disclosure form and booklet.
***************
"eventhough the property was pre-78, the landlord * UNDER THE FEDERAL RULES THAT ARE APPLICABLE IN VA* had no duty to disclose even if she knew of any lead paint. In VA, KNOWING = HAVING HAD IT TESTED which is why landlords "don't ask, don't tell""

**A: totally incorrect. If L knew of lead paint, L has a duty by mandate of law to disclose the information to T. There is no VA State or Federal law which exempts the property owner from disclosing the presence of lead paint if L had knowledge of lead paint. Please post the Federal Rules that are applicable in VA that states that L had no duty to disclose even if she knew of any lead paint.
*************
Since your posts were obviously contrary to both state and federal laws, you were asked to prove your claims. You have 'danced and spun' around this but have not yet provided any proof of your claims, nor have you admitted that you were incorrect.

Simply, we are getting 'fed up' with your error-filled posts with no basis in fact.

So, ball is in your court.... either provide some support for your claims by providing a link to statute or cited caselaw..... or admit your error. Your failure to do one or the other, will result in your getting booted.

To help you, here is the applicable VA citation:
"State Lead-Paint Law: Va. Uniform Statewide Building Code, Vol. 11, §§ 1701, R224, PM 305.4;
Prohibits application of lead-based paint on any interior or exterior surface of a dwelling.

"Beginning September, 1996, landlords are required, by Federal law, to provide lead paint disclosure information to all present and future tenants. Leases or agreements must contain the following Lead Warning Statement:
Housing built before 1978 may contain lead based paint. Lead from paint, paint chips, and dust can pose health hazards if not taken care of properly. Lead exposure is especially harmful to young children and pregnant women. Before renting pre-1978 housing, landlords must disclose the presence of known lead-based paint hazards in the dwelling. Tenants must also receive a Federally approved pamphlet on lead poisoning prevention."

**A: cvillecpm, you have a chance to redeem yourself by ending the spin and admitting your error.
 
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Cvillecpm

Senior Member
Jeeze guys....I provide the information you want requested and the information relative to how it works in VA, and you still aren't satisfied. Are you sure you aren't my ex-husband?
 

JETX

Senior Member
"I provide the information you want requested and the information relative to how it works in VA, and you still aren't satisfied."

I find it extremely unlikely that you are so dense as to believe that your clearly INACCURATE and NON-RELEVANT 'citation' even comes close to supporting your claims.

Lets try this once more..... R-E-A-L S-L-O-W.
1) Subject is landlord-tenant lead paint contamination and improper (or no notice) by Virginia landlord.
2) HG and I provided valid posts that, based on the information provided, landlord was in error by not providing required notice (by both VA and Federal laws).
3) Your post said that landlord notice was NOT required ("VA is a "don't ask/don't tell" state. VA legislature enacted LAW that if landlord does not know, landlord does not have to disclose...."), which is clearly NOT correct.
4) Your later post was even further off-base when you said that since the poster wasn't pregnant when moved in, that the landlord didn't have a duty to notify ("You were NOT pregnant when you originally moved in in Dec'01 so eventhough the property was pre-78, the landlord * UNDER THE FEDERAL RULES THAT ARE APPLICABLE IN VA* had no duty to disclose even if she knew of any lead paint.").
5) You were asked to provide PROOF of your claim.
6) You 'hemmed and hawwed', 'weaseled and spun', until you finally provided some excerpt (from somewhere) that an agent could not be held liable if he/she was not aware of a lead problem in a sale (?).
7) Now, you claim that you have provided support for your errors and don't understand (??) why you haven't.

Are your really so dense as to believe that you have provided ANYTHING that supports your claims..... or are you just ignorant to the issues???

You have been given far, far too much time to either prove your claims or to acknowledge your 'error'. You seem unable to do either. The golden boot is being brought back.... it is up to you in the next few hours as to whether it hits you in the ass or not.
 

HomeGuru

Senior Member
JETX, please do not kick Cvillecpm off just yet.
As a courtesy, I am willling to give her another opportunity to clear this issue and either state her position in a professional manner sticking to relevant facts and pertinent State and/or Federal law in support of her position or admit her error and apologize.

Cvillecpm, you are hereby requested to respond to the above to clear your name.
 

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