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Trusts?
- Thread starter Jackston
- Start date
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Thank you for the reply. So if this is the case and one has no idea if one is in the trust then one can have no idea if one is removed from the trust. In other words the trust is in no way a public document so he who administers the trust (after death of trust creator) can change it on his whim and include or exclude, based on his preference, and there is no way to know what was ever intended by the creator. Or am I totally off base?
Erstwhile Bil is executor of Fil and assuming also trustee of trust. Bil at one time told me I had great expectations, "My father will take care of you for the rest of your life". This was also told to me, in not so many words, by someone close enough to know but not a family member. Bil had also told me in e-mail that "My father has told me to make sure you and (grandchild) are totally taken care of. But**************.....
A few years ago Fil got the notion he wanted to buy grandchild and I a new car and house. He bugged me for months to give him my answer I kept telling him I still didn't know the question, he said Bil will get with you to discuss it. I had already figured out that whatever it was that Fil wanted to do, Bil didn't want him to do and he assumed that eventually Fil would forget about it and that would be the end of it.
The question was never posed until Bil and Fil and I were all in the same room when Fil demanded my answer again. He said, "Come on, I'm not gonna live forever and I want to make sure you are taken care of." Bil SQUIRMED in his chair as he realized he would have to deal with this after all.
So finally Bil approached me in an e-mail...."My father really seems to want to buy you a new house, here is how it will work. We buy the house, we own the house, you pay us back for the house, and you need to buy your house in (Mil and Fil's neighborhood)."
So Fil "buying" us a new house turned into Bil giving me permission to buy a house I could never afford and demanding I buy it in a neighborhood I have ZERO interest in living in. A seemingly generous offer turned into another insult. Meanwhile, Bil used Fil's money to buy himself a 250K sports car. He never brought up the car aspect for grandchild and I again.
Bil started probate proceedings less than a week after Fil passed. I went down to look at the will. Mil's will stated that she and her husband were making like wills at the same time. Hers was dated 1994. His was dated 2008. Hers was somewhat specific. His was plain vanilla.
I guess I had expected that the trust was for the 2 boys and that any other bequests would be made in the will. Cousins were always told they were "in the will".
Fil's changed will left everything outside the trust to the trustee to distributed according to the Family Trust.
The odd thing is that in May of 08 Fil no longer recognized his grandchild or myself. Yet in Sept 08 his attys testified as to the soundness of his mind regarding the new will.
I sent bil an e-mail asking for a reply but no surprise have not received one. I can't help thinking that he has done or is doing something to cut me out and that is why he's moved so fast.
A few years ago Fil got the notion he wanted to buy grandchild and I a new car and house. He bugged me for months to give him my answer I kept telling him I still didn't know the question, he said Bil will get with you to discuss it. I had already figured out that whatever it was that Fil wanted to do, Bil didn't want him to do and he assumed that eventually Fil would forget about it and that would be the end of it.
The question was never posed until Bil and Fil and I were all in the same room when Fil demanded my answer again. He said, "Come on, I'm not gonna live forever and I want to make sure you are taken care of." Bil SQUIRMED in his chair as he realized he would have to deal with this after all.
So finally Bil approached me in an e-mail...."My father really seems to want to buy you a new house, here is how it will work. We buy the house, we own the house, you pay us back for the house, and you need to buy your house in (Mil and Fil's neighborhood)."
So Fil "buying" us a new house turned into Bil giving me permission to buy a house I could never afford and demanding I buy it in a neighborhood I have ZERO interest in living in. A seemingly generous offer turned into another insult. Meanwhile, Bil used Fil's money to buy himself a 250K sports car. He never brought up the car aspect for grandchild and I again.
Bil started probate proceedings less than a week after Fil passed. I went down to look at the will. Mil's will stated that she and her husband were making like wills at the same time. Hers was dated 1994. His was dated 2008. Hers was somewhat specific. His was plain vanilla.
I guess I had expected that the trust was for the 2 boys and that any other bequests would be made in the will. Cousins were always told they were "in the will".
Fil's changed will left everything outside the trust to the trustee to distributed according to the Family Trust.
The odd thing is that in May of 08 Fil no longer recognized his grandchild or myself. Yet in Sept 08 his attys testified as to the soundness of his mind regarding the new will.
I sent bil an e-mail asking for a reply but no surprise have not received one. I can't help thinking that he has done or is doing something to cut me out and that is why he's moved so fast.
Obviously, your challenge is to be able to document FIL's state of mind when the new will was manufactured. Can his doctor help you? This is going to end up in court. The more you can do outside of court will save you a lot of money. Be professional in your approach and, as hard as it may be, try to stay on friendly terms with BIL. Where are the other spouses in this situation?
What is status of your spouse?
What is status of your spouse?
It is such a long and Peyton Place story with so many twists and turns. There are no spouses. I was not married to ex and neither son has ever married. (I refer to them as in-laws for ease of communication and because once Fil realized I was NOT the evil and gold digging bi&^h that ex had told him I was, he referred to me as his Dil. Ex was disowned by Fil a few years back. Fil suffered a major illness and ex wouldn't bother himself to even visit let alone lift a finger to help with his care.
There is more than a touch of paranoia that everyone is after their money so I doubt that either son will ever marry.
What I believe Bil is counting on is that I cannot afford to deal with any of this.
Ex and fil lied in court to cheat child out of support based on ability to pay. They said ex was living on a "loan" of 36 K when ex was actually on trust fund #2 worth 3-4M. Because he blew thru trust fund #1 ex did not have full access to #2 and had to ask daddy for money from it. So instead of paying what he can pay he only has to pay a fraction and doesn't even pay that.
In fact, at the time we were in court over child support Ex was under investigation by the IRS for excessive deductions from his "non existent" taxes. It took me quite a few years to put the pieces all together but I did. They all flat out lied. Ex told his CEO father that I was evil and according to bil, fil believed everything they told him so he felt no compunction to lie due to my being said evil.
Based on the fact of the lies I took the "you will be taken care of" as making up for everything child and I have done without. Ex has nothing to do with child unless I have my lips glued to his backside and I long ago tired of that little game. I've been counting on this money to take ex to court and make him pay.
Both wills had no contest clauses. I expect that since the will dumps everything not already in the trust, into the trust, somehow the no contest thing might apply there as well. They have VERY deep pockets and VERY high connections and are used to getting their way, fair and legal don't matter.
If I'm not told I'm in or out how do I fight that? I don't expect bil to answer me and I'm used to his attitude that I'm supposed to show up and shut up and be loyal and dutiful and expect nothing in return. He shows no interest in child either.
When Mil was in hospital 2k miles away he wouldn't tell me the name of the hospital, said he "forgot." So I asked cousin who also wouldn't tell me, "She's in the best place getting the best care." What is the name? Change of subject like I had not even asked. So I e-mail bil and ask why no one will tell me the name and he just ignored me and never answered. But boy he expected me to keep showing up and doing for fil.
As far as the Dr. well there were many but if I can't afford a lawyer does it really matter?
There is more than a touch of paranoia that everyone is after their money so I doubt that either son will ever marry.
What I believe Bil is counting on is that I cannot afford to deal with any of this.
Ex and fil lied in court to cheat child out of support based on ability to pay. They said ex was living on a "loan" of 36 K when ex was actually on trust fund #2 worth 3-4M. Because he blew thru trust fund #1 ex did not have full access to #2 and had to ask daddy for money from it. So instead of paying what he can pay he only has to pay a fraction and doesn't even pay that.
In fact, at the time we were in court over child support Ex was under investigation by the IRS for excessive deductions from his "non existent" taxes. It took me quite a few years to put the pieces all together but I did. They all flat out lied. Ex told his CEO father that I was evil and according to bil, fil believed everything they told him so he felt no compunction to lie due to my being said evil.
Based on the fact of the lies I took the "you will be taken care of" as making up for everything child and I have done without. Ex has nothing to do with child unless I have my lips glued to his backside and I long ago tired of that little game. I've been counting on this money to take ex to court and make him pay.
Both wills had no contest clauses. I expect that since the will dumps everything not already in the trust, into the trust, somehow the no contest thing might apply there as well. They have VERY deep pockets and VERY high connections and are used to getting their way, fair and legal don't matter.
If I'm not told I'm in or out how do I fight that? I don't expect bil to answer me and I'm used to his attitude that I'm supposed to show up and shut up and be loyal and dutiful and expect nothing in return. He shows no interest in child either.
When Mil was in hospital 2k miles away he wouldn't tell me the name of the hospital, said he "forgot." So I asked cousin who also wouldn't tell me, "She's in the best place getting the best care." What is the name? Change of subject like I had not even asked. So I e-mail bil and ask why no one will tell me the name and he just ignored me and never answered. But boy he expected me to keep showing up and doing for fil.
As far as the Dr. well there were many but if I can't afford a lawyer does it really matter?
Let's face it--you have been royally SCREWED!! But you already knew that. This BIL trustee is so sneaky that the language in the trust that "leaves everything to the trustee" could be twisted to be interpreted to leave everything to HIM personally, depending on how the language in the trust appears--let's hope that other beneficiaries get something, IF there are other trust beneficiaries.
What is most mystifying to me is that you had the perfect opportunity to ask for exactly what you wanted when he asked you what you wanted--that would have been the perfect time to explain in detail and insist that he follow through with something in writing. But you probably were intimidated by the presence of the crook. He probably DID put something in writing that the BIL has now circumvented. If you or your family had been named as beneficiaries in the trust it seems you would have been notified by now.
If I were you I would be consulting with a trust attorney experienced in contesting trusts AND contesting probates to find out your chances of a successful contest, which could be expensive. There are not likely to be very many trust attorneys reading this message board.
If your attorney was able to get access to the FIL's physician's medical records (before or after a lawsuit) and if they confirmed FIL's mental incompetency or suffering from medications that affected his judgement during or before the date the trust AND the will was signed/amended you would have automatic grounds to void the trust and will.. Attorney could also possibly help you find out the name of the attorney or law firm that FIL used and hopefully there will be previous copies of the other trusts and other wills on file before they were revised, IF BIL hasn't already instructed them to destroy the previous copies.
Attorney may have other ideas to help get the information you seek that will best help your case. An initial consultation should not be very expensive.
What is most mystifying to me is that you had the perfect opportunity to ask for exactly what you wanted when he asked you what you wanted--that would have been the perfect time to explain in detail and insist that he follow through with something in writing. But you probably were intimidated by the presence of the crook. He probably DID put something in writing that the BIL has now circumvented. If you or your family had been named as beneficiaries in the trust it seems you would have been notified by now.
If I were you I would be consulting with a trust attorney experienced in contesting trusts AND contesting probates to find out your chances of a successful contest, which could be expensive. There are not likely to be very many trust attorneys reading this message board.
If your attorney was able to get access to the FIL's physician's medical records (before or after a lawsuit) and if they confirmed FIL's mental incompetency or suffering from medications that affected his judgement during or before the date the trust AND the will was signed/amended you would have automatic grounds to void the trust and will.. Attorney could also possibly help you find out the name of the attorney or law firm that FIL used and hopefully there will be previous copies of the other trusts and other wills on file before they were revised, IF BIL hasn't already instructed them to destroy the previous copies.
Attorney may have other ideas to help get the information you seek that will best help your case. An initial consultation should not be very expensive.
Thanks again Don for the reply. LOL that is so funny, and yes, I know I am royally screwed. And screw the other beneficiaries too...some of them have been frothing at the mouth waiting for these people to die to get some of the pie.
After court for the child support issue, where ex and fil lied, my atty said, "Say what you will about you but you got SCREWED." Pretty much says HE sucked. Best part about that is that ex TOLD me to get an atty, "Get an atty, get a good atty, make sure you and the baby are taken care of, I want to do the right thing, my trust fund is my income." Then they LIED! In hindsight you can see it all, in the moment it's worse than GASLIGHT.
I have gone back and forth over the last few years trying to figure out if bil is just that cunning or wondering if he is smarter than a first grader. I think he is not that bright but he was well schooled in manipulation. I don't believe I was intimidated so much as I was trusting and so he played me.
Have I mentioned that 5 people including his mother had told me that bil is ...cheap, tight, fiscally conservative, etc......except for himself and his collection of sports cars.
I have no doubt that something WAS put in writing because I was told I would be taken care of by someone who had nothing to gain or lose by saying so and was in the perfect position to know all about it. ( I still have belief that regardless of my inclusion or exclusion, that child should still be in, so wonder if that gives cause for a copy) What bil has done about it is the point.
I have put a few feelers out to attys re asking about getting a copy. I hit upon a firm I think would be perfect, litigating these situations is exactly what they do but don't know if they will be interested based on expense. I did read something about the cost can come from the estate or be contingent. Also read that "no contest" is narrowly construed and since I'm not named in the will I can't be offed for contest of that, and as you say, if will is invalid so is changed trust. I'd be all in for that. Sent an e-mail and somehow don't think they will respond so will probably have to pay for a consult.
I do know the name of the firm/atty that fil used ,at least for estate matters. He is one that signed off as to the mental state. But fil could and often was swayed/guided/instructed by bil to "get the right response" so fil would do whatever bil told him in the end, thus my concern. There is a note in the probate file about the signature of fil's 08 will being illegible which is normal considering the nature of his illness. I had seen bil get fil to "practice" his signature several times. I thought that as odd as bil already had poa over fil so why not sign for him? Perhaps that is the clincher.
I was cogitating on the mental state of fil and recalled an e-mail with bil. Mil, child, evil cousin, and myself went out for dinner. Cousin hit on the waiter all thru dinner. Even child said, "Why'd he do that, the waiter wasn't interested in him.?" LOl out of the mouths of babes.....So the check comes and evil cousin tips 30 on an 80 tab on mil's cc. Then slipped 20 of his own into the tab. Ick. So I discussed cousin's behavior with bil, not his place to throw around their money thou he often tried his best. Bil said he was aware of this type thing and something along the line of....."I'm dealing with things the way I think my parents would if they were of sound mind." This was about 2.5 years before fil passed. Think it could count, him saying he didn't think they were of sound mind ?
Don't know how that might hold up in court but I have MANY points where behavior of fil was not "normal" due to brain injury and drugs both. If these would have merit in court is another matter. He had periods where he was pretty much a zombie and he also had very lucid times where he was apparently himself and funny as all get out.
I want this to be an episode of Boston Legal where the good guys win. (that's me)
Wish I could just tell my story, they lied, they manipulated, blah blah. Their side, she taxied and chauffeured for us, she sat and held hands, and offered herself, so we used her all up, she cooked for us, that horrible Bi^%H!
After court for the child support issue, where ex and fil lied, my atty said, "Say what you will about you but you got SCREWED." Pretty much says HE sucked. Best part about that is that ex TOLD me to get an atty, "Get an atty, get a good atty, make sure you and the baby are taken care of, I want to do the right thing, my trust fund is my income." Then they LIED! In hindsight you can see it all, in the moment it's worse than GASLIGHT.
I have gone back and forth over the last few years trying to figure out if bil is just that cunning or wondering if he is smarter than a first grader. I think he is not that bright but he was well schooled in manipulation. I don't believe I was intimidated so much as I was trusting and so he played me.
Have I mentioned that 5 people including his mother had told me that bil is ...cheap, tight, fiscally conservative, etc......except for himself and his collection of sports cars.
I have no doubt that something WAS put in writing because I was told I would be taken care of by someone who had nothing to gain or lose by saying so and was in the perfect position to know all about it. ( I still have belief that regardless of my inclusion or exclusion, that child should still be in, so wonder if that gives cause for a copy) What bil has done about it is the point.
I have put a few feelers out to attys re asking about getting a copy. I hit upon a firm I think would be perfect, litigating these situations is exactly what they do but don't know if they will be interested based on expense. I did read something about the cost can come from the estate or be contingent. Also read that "no contest" is narrowly construed and since I'm not named in the will I can't be offed for contest of that, and as you say, if will is invalid so is changed trust. I'd be all in for that. Sent an e-mail and somehow don't think they will respond so will probably have to pay for a consult.
I do know the name of the firm/atty that fil used ,at least for estate matters. He is one that signed off as to the mental state. But fil could and often was swayed/guided/instructed by bil to "get the right response" so fil would do whatever bil told him in the end, thus my concern. There is a note in the probate file about the signature of fil's 08 will being illegible which is normal considering the nature of his illness. I had seen bil get fil to "practice" his signature several times. I thought that as odd as bil already had poa over fil so why not sign for him? Perhaps that is the clincher.
I was cogitating on the mental state of fil and recalled an e-mail with bil. Mil, child, evil cousin, and myself went out for dinner. Cousin hit on the waiter all thru dinner. Even child said, "Why'd he do that, the waiter wasn't interested in him.?" LOl out of the mouths of babes.....So the check comes and evil cousin tips 30 on an 80 tab on mil's cc. Then slipped 20 of his own into the tab. Ick. So I discussed cousin's behavior with bil, not his place to throw around their money thou he often tried his best. Bil said he was aware of this type thing and something along the line of....."I'm dealing with things the way I think my parents would if they were of sound mind." This was about 2.5 years before fil passed. Think it could count, him saying he didn't think they were of sound mind ?
Don't know how that might hold up in court but I have MANY points where behavior of fil was not "normal" due to brain injury and drugs both. If these would have merit in court is another matter. He had periods where he was pretty much a zombie and he also had very lucid times where he was apparently himself and funny as all get out.
I want this to be an episode of Boston Legal where the good guys win. (that's me)
Wish I could just tell my story, they lied, they manipulated, blah blah. Their side, she taxied and chauffeured for us, she sat and held hands, and offered herself, so we used her all up, she cooked for us, that horrible Bi^%H!
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