Txpe2011

[CJane]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? tx

So... I have been waiting for the perfect opportunity to share this with everyone. Here goes:

Today I went in to make payment on my attorney's kid's college fund, and he asked how things have been the last month or so. I said the only thing that 'annoys' me is that my daughter says she spends the night with an ex family member of stepmom's when Dad has to work at night. I even said, this is actually not a big deal but it just kind of annoys me that I'm available to have her and he sends her off to a non-family member, often for more than just one night... But you asked so I'm telling you.
He paused for a moment and then said, I have a problem with this.... If Dad is unable to exercise his access, then kiddo needs to stay with Mom and vice versa. I even commented that maybe it could be seen as a sleepover of friends or something and he said Maybe if it were once in a while but every weekend? His exact words were 'there is a difference between designating pick up and drop off to someone else, but it's quite different if your designating your access time in excess of a few hours at a time' I really thought his response would be 'oh well Dad can do what he wants on his time but that isn't what he said. He is going to confer with a judge before deciding what steps to take. So..... Of course depending on state and obviously on the judge, Mom may very well be within her right to ask that if Dad will be working while kiddo is sleeping then the access schedule should be changed. Granted we don't know what state she is in.

OP why won't you answer some of the questions you have been asked? I don't think you were at all attacked-- I think you just didn't like what you were hearing. No reason why mom shouldn't have her kiddo at home at night if Dad isn't even there to exercise his rights. Can mom not keep kiddo for dad and dad pick up kiddo on his way home from work each morning?

If it's not a big deal to YOU, and only a minor annoyance, why would you even care what your attorney's opinion is? Is it all of a sudden going to become a big deal if he calls you tomorrow and says "Whoa! The judge HATES the idea of what your ex is doing. We stand an excellent chance of ROFR if we go back to court!"?

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? tx



If it's not a big deal to YOU, and only a minor annoyance, why would you even care what your attorney's opinion is? Is it all of a sudden going to become a big deal if he calls you tomorrow and says "Whoa! The judge HATES the idea of what your ex is doing. We stand an excellent chance of ROFR if we go back to court!"?

I don't think that I saw the original thread that this came from, but I am going to comment.

Sometimes things that people feel are not in the best interest of a child does annoy them, but they may have reason to feel like nothing can be done about it, therefore there is no point in stewing about it.

However, if that person then finds out that what the believe is not in the best interest of the child really is changeable, then they will go ahead and try for the change.

In a case of a parent working on the nights when they would normally have their child, it simply would make sense to change their visitation to days when they do not have to work...particularly in the case of the child staying with a steparent's ex-family. (talk about legal strangers)

I also have sometimes posted things that I have heard directly from the mouths of judges or attorneys, that seem to contradict the general consensus on this forum. I think that our opinions are mostly correct, but some of them are not as cast in concrete as we make them sound. Not because we are necessarily trying to manipulate posters or anything like that, just simply that its been said so many times that it seems cast in concrete to us, even when it isn't.

 

[TxPE2011]

Hi CJane -- I completely understand your question and your stand point. It actually used to be something I would have flipped my lid over bc of our very high conflict situation.

The problem with Dad not exercising his visitstion in my situation is that Dad fought for several years to get his access back after having it removed because of his at the time gf/now wife interferring with MY access and causing conflict at drop off and pick up etc. Now that he has gotten all his access back, he isn't seeing our daughter when his wife has her. The reason I call it an 'annoyance' is because I felt that there was nothing I could do. I thought I just had to accept it. I taught myself to just let it go. Sending our daughter EOW to spend the weekend Friday - Sunday with the father of his stepchild is against ROFR but I didn't really want to go back to court. I expressed my wishes to not go back to court. The fighting is exhausting and financially draining.

There are other issues besides just sending her to spend the weekend with someone else. Her weekend homework is not getting done. Reading here, I decided that it's my daughter's responsibility to get her homework done when she isn't with me. But my attorney doesn't agree. She is only 10 and sometimes 10 yr olds need to be reminded, go get your homework done. Im finding that 5th grade homework is ridiculous and the large amounts are time consuming and her grades are quickly falling from not getting them completed on the nights she is with stepmom. I say she is with stepmom because she is. Dad is not home in the evenings or on the weekends. Often is out of town on business or at the office until after she is in bed.

Second issue that bothers me: I have tried to teach my daughter how to speak up and request a bath.. She doesn't get one from Thursday until she returns home on Monday night. She says that there isn't enough time for a bath. She says she asks but it's the wrong time or they are not at home. She asks to call her dad and stepmom says, no he is working. She hasnt actually seen or talked to her dad in an entire month which he admits to because he hasnt been home. But she has been with stepmom and stepmom's ex husband for 14 days out of 36 days, 22 with me-- but hasn't once seen Dad.

I 'thought' I had to accept this because I cant tell Dad what to do on his time or who our daughter can be around. According to my attorney, I thought wrong. That was all. I called it an annoyance because I just felt that screaming and stomping my feet was only going to frustrate me, nothing more. I have tried to just accept it. I didnt know that I didn't have to accept it. I still can't tell Dad what to do on his time but I can ask a judge to tell him that if he isn't going to be home, our daughter should just stay home. What I would like to do is send Dad a letter to attempt to discuss this issue. We do not co-parent unfortunately, we parallel parent. I've been working on this with a therapist because I honestly just want to live my life and have a happy kiddo.

The point of my bringing it up in the other thread was that although as you stated, child care is generally not one of those 'joint decision' making issues (I completely 100% agree) if Dad is working while kid is sleeping, why can't mom keep kid at home? Or at Mom's house? Why is it ok for girlfriend to have kid when mom is available? This past summer, I worked everyday but there were days that Dad didn't have to work or was off during the week. Instead of sending her to daycare, I sent her to Dad's ... Kid gets special time with Dad that she normally would be sitting at daycare.

 

[CJane]

I know I look at this a lot differently than some of the other parents on this board.

But, with a significant amount of time spent with each parent, it's more important in MY opinion, to keep the schedule the same, in the interest of stability, than it is to say "Well, HE/SHE isn't there anyway!".

My girls spend the majority of the school year in their Dad's custody (we live 5 miles from each other). He travels a LOT for work. It would seriously never occur to me to show up at his house and insist on my girls coming to MY house instead of staying in HIS house. BOTH of our houses are their "home". WHY should they have to leave their HOME with him in order to sleep in MY home instead?

They spend 50% of their time with us in the summer. Again, I would NEVER allow him to show up at my house and take the kids just because I happen to not be home. NOT happening.

And until we stopped interacting with each other at all, we had a pretty high conflict relationship. Know what ended the conflict? Ending the desire to give a single gram of *&() about what he's doing as long as I know my kids are safe.

 

[TxPE2011]

I know I look at this a lot differently than some of the other parents on this board.

But, with a significant amount of time spent with each parent, it's more important in MY opinion, to keep the schedule the same, in the interest of stability, than it is to say "Well, HE/SHE isn't there anyway!".

My girls spend the majority of the school year in their Dad's custody (we live 5 miles from each other). He travels a LOT for work. It would seriously never occur to me to show up at his house and insist on my girls coming to MY house instead of staying in HIS house. BOTH of our houses are their "home". WHY should they have to leave their HOME with him in order to sleep in MY home instead?

They spend 50% of their time with us in the summer. Again, I would NEVER allow him to show up at my house and take the kids just because I happen to not be home. NOT happening.

And until we stopped interacting with each other at all, we had a pretty high conflict relationship. Know what ended the conflict? Ending the desire to give a single gram of *&() about what he's doing as long as I know my kids are safe.

I actually DO agree with you. Even though my post may seem that I don't. If my daughter was in her home while dad was away, that would be Ok with me. Daughter is at stepmom's ex husband's house. Not her home.

 

[TxPE2011]

I would also never suggest someone going to mom or dad's house and 'demanding' child be released to them because mom or dad was not home.

A little story about that: when my daughter was 7, my husband and I had another child. I planned my induction date to be the weekend that my ex would have our daughter so that I wouldn't have to worry about her while I was in the hospital. I let dad know the plans and he agreed to get her to school on monday and tuesday and agreed to my parents picking her up Tuesday and bringing her to me so that she could meet the baby. And then she would just stay with me the rest of the week since it was my access time anyway. I found out tuesday morning that I would not be released from the hospital as expected on Tuesday that I had to stay until Wednesday. I contacted Dad, let him know and asked him what he wanted to do or suggested. He suggested we stick with the original plan of my parents picking up my daughter from school tues and then asked if grandparents could keep her over night and take her to school Wednesday because he wouldn't be able to do it. But then at 1030pm on Tuesday night, after she was already in bed, as agreed to earlier in the day at my parents, he shows up at my parents demanding they release her to him. My dad talked to him and said 'ya know, she is already asleep, can she just stay the night, you agreed to it, we changed our plans around to help out, by the time you get her home to your house it will be 1130 or later, and then she has to be up earlier than normal to do the drive to school, can't she just stay?' dad said absolutely not, I have a right to my child ROFR!! So my parents handed her over. It was a huge ordeal. He filed for contempt the next day. He got smacked pretty hard on this. Here I was in the hospital, granted he did have rights to ROFR but he agreed to not exercise it, it was his idea. I realized then 'what NOT to do' in this situation. Why make a fool of myself? Why freak my child out by ripping her out of her Dad's home or wherever she might be? And obviously I don't ever want to be verbally 'smacked' by a judge.

These are the kinds of events that have taken place that landed dad on supervised visits... Because he never thinks what is in the best interest of the child. I will say that although I think it's odd for my daughter to be spending her time with dad with someone else's dad, I think she is 'safe'. I don't know the man but my daughter says he is really nice and he buys her things, he feeds her, he doesn't bathe her(this I appreciate actually) but he is actually a great dad to his own daughter and is actually really kind to my daughter.... But wouldn't you agree?? If she isn't with Dad or stepmom or one of Dad's family members like grandparents, aunts, uncles etc that it's not really the same as being with Dad? Don't you at least kind of see my point? Maybe? If not, that's cool. I'm seeing your point -- and I do agree with you -- if the situation were just daughter being at Dad's home while Dad were gone but it's when daughter isn't even at Dad's that I'm dealing with.

It doesn't matter to me that Dad doesn't offer for me to keep our daughter when he knows he won't be home; I always offer it to him because I know that is what is best for my kiddo. To be with Dad as much as possible.

 

[gam]

I know I look at this a lot differently than some of the other parents on this board.

But, with a significant amount of time spent with each parent, it's more important in MY opinion, to keep the schedule the same, in the interest of stability, than it is to say "Well, HE/SHE isn't there anyway!".

My girls spend the majority of the school year in their Dad's custody (we live 5 miles from each other). He travels a LOT for work. It would seriously never occur to me to show up at his house and insist on my girls coming to MY house instead of staying in HIS house. BOTH of our houses are their "home". WHY should they have to leave their HOME with him in order to sleep in MY home instead?

They spend 50% of their time with us in the summer. Again, I would NEVER allow him to show up at my house and take the kids just because I happen to not be home. NOT happening.

And until we stopped interacting with each other at all, we had a pretty high conflict relationship. Know what ended the conflict? Ending the desire to give a single gram of *&() about what he's doing as long as I know my kids are safe.

For your situation, that is your choice, and after reading numerous posts by you, I am willing to bet that it is the "best interest of your children".

With that being said, not every case is the same situation. Occassional, fine but every time. I personally would not have a beef if the person worked night shift, no different to me then someone working dayshift and having the kids in daycare. But different story if your just shoving the kids off with someone else all the time for no good reason. I personally would take that to court, cause if you don't want the kids, I do.

Also in some cases, not giving a single gram of *&() about what the other is doing as long as you know the kids are safe, backfires on you. Again not saying that is the case for everyone, but for some that does not work. My daughter also had a high conflict situation. Not giving a crap, made things worse. It boiled down to a balance of deciding what was important to fuss over and what was not. If she did no fussing, then it turned into an unsafe situation for the child. If she fussed to much, it also turned into an unsafe situation for the child. So she had to find a balance of not eating his crap, but not caring on some of his crap. Once she found that balance, the high conflict ended.

I think the key for anyone is to find the balance that works for their situation. I can't speak for every court, but the ones I am familiar with in Mi, don't see things as cut and dry as this board does.

 

[CJane]

But wouldn't you agree?? If she isn't with Dad or stepmom or one of Dad's family members like grandparents, aunts, uncles etc that it's not really the same as being with Dad? Don't you at least kind of see my point? Maybe? If not, that's cool. I'm seeing your point -- and I do agree with you -- if the situation were just daughter being at Dad's home while Dad were gone but it's when daughter isn't even at Dad's that I'm dealing with.

It doesn't matter to me that Dad doesn't offer for me to keep our daughter when he knows he won't be home; I always offer it to him because I know that is what is best for my kiddo. To be with Dad as much as possible.

Mostly, I asked because I wanted you to really THINK about this. Not from an "Aha!" point of view, but from this one:

You said this isn't a big deal to you. It's a minor annoyance, you sort of wish Dad was handling it differently, but you'd learned to live with it, decided it wasn't your business, taught yourself not to care... whatever.

But THEN, your attorney hears about it and says "Oh, no. I'M not ok with that." (Really, your attorney isn't ok with it? WTF?) And suddenly, you're thinking about it. You decide that you don't like it AT ALL afterall. That kiddo SHOULD be with you if not with Dad. Because your attorney said that's the way it should be.

You have an admittedly high conflict situation. You're trying to ease up on the conflicts. And your attorney - who doesn't get paid if there's no conflict - plants a seed that maybe what you're doing is the wrong thing and you SHOULD be a LOT more upset than you are.

 

[TxPE2011]

Thank you CJane -- I see your point.

I don't think I represented myself correctly and that's my fault. But I see what you are saying, given what I put out there to begin with.

For the record, it's not OK with me, even though it's what I said. It annoys me because I feel that it's the only thing I can be. I've been told to mind my own business, I've been told to not worry about what Dad does on Dad's time. Doesn't mean I'm not still documenting it all for the future.

In fact, it's not that my attorney wants to start another case-- we have another case already. We just finalized this last modification over the summer that was possibly the longest modification EVER in history of this court. But I was served a couple of weeks ago for contempt, so it's not me taking dad back to court, it's Dad (or wait, it's probably not Dad, it's stepmom I'm sure) that is starting this war again and my attorney is doing his job. Dad states I didn't notify him of what school our daughter is attending this school year and that I didn't notify him of her new teacher's name and email address. Lol daughter is attending the same school she always has attended. We haven't moved. There are no changes. It's just another attempt by dad's 'Father's rights' advocate, I mean attorney, to keep us wrapped up in litigation for 8 more years. We've been there for 6 of our 6 year divorce so why not sit there for another 8? I'm sure this is Dad's way of trying to make sure I have not one penny to my name when our daughter turns 18. I'm just wondering, where he thinks all his pennies are going to end up. He always is ordered to pay all or at least 1/2 of my legal fees. I could stop fighting Which is what I want to do but I'm scared I'll blink and lose custody somehow.

Ok that was more than I intended to share but I wanted to say thanks and I appreciate your point of view.

 

[LdiJ]

Thank you CJane -- I see your point.

I don't think I represented myself correctly and that's my fault. But I see what you are saying, given what I put out there to begin with.

For the record, it's not OK with me, even though it's what I said. It annoys me because I feel that it's the only thing I can be. I've been told to mind my own business, I've been told to not worry about what Dad does on Dad's time. Doesn't mean I'm not still documenting it all for the future.

In fact, it's not that my attorney wants to start another case-- we have another case already. We just finalized this last modification over the summer that was possibly the longest modification EVER in history of this court. But I was served a couple of weeks ago for contempt, so it's not me taking dad back to court, it's Dad (or wait, it's probably not Dad, it's stepmom I'm sure) that is starting this war again and my attorney is doing his job. Dad states I didn't notify him of what school our daughter is attending this school year and that I didn't notify him of her new teacher's name and email address. Lol daughter is attending the same school she always has attended. We haven't moved. There are no changes. It's just another attempt by dad's 'Father's rights' advocate, I mean attorney, to keep us wrapped up in litigation for 8 more years. We've been there for 6 of our 6 year divorce so why not sit there for another 8? I'm sure this is Dad's way of trying to make sure I have not one penny to my name when our daughter turns 18. I'm just wondering, where he thinks all his pennies are going to end up. He always is ordered to pay all or at least 1/2 of my legal fees. I could stop fighting Which is what I want to do but I'm scared I'll blink and lose custody somehow.

Ok that was more than I intended to share but I wanted to say thanks and I appreciate your point of view.

There actually is one more reason why it sometimes is better to make an issue of the fact that children are not actually WITH the other parent, during the other parent's time. Particularly when its a substantial amount of time. A paid daycare provider is another story.

It tends to create a false sense of entitled in the person with whom the children are staying. It can even give them defacto parental status in some states.

Then, if something happens to the parent (dies, goes to jail, disappears etc.) the remaining parent often ends up in litigation AGAIN, with a third party attempting to obtain visitation or custody rights regarding the child.

The Troxel case was a very similar sort of case. The grandparents had a false sense of entitlement because the children spent most of dad's visitation time with the grandparents. Dad was there too, much of the time because he also lived there, but the grandparents essentially were the "parents" on his time.

The mom in Troxel never intended to stop access to the grandparents. She simply wanted them to act like normal grandparents and have occasional, non-scheduled visits. They were not satisfied with that and wanted their son's full visitation schedule...and from there went a case that went all the way to the United States Supreme Court.