RedemptionMan
Member
Sigh. R-man, you are not listening. Catch the wave, here, man. Fight this smart. Realize just exactly WHAT you are appealing about. Forget justice and punishment for the guilty. You're only here to win this appeal and get to keep your unemployment benefits.
To begin with, everything these posters are saying to you are very valid arguments. And instead of listening to them and realizing that what they say are valid points that could be used to argue against your version of the firing/quit, you are jousting at them as if they'd insulted your parentage because they don't agree with you and believe you emphatically. Instead your job is to craft your presentation so these ideas do not arise, the appeals officer does not perceive that you actually did voluntarily quit your job.
Righteous indignation is NOT what you want to go into the hearing with. To begin with, you're not going to jump up and cross examine and demand the truth and prove the employer is lying. You're just going to craft your story in such a way that it is reasonable and believable.
Then you're going to tell that story. Not read it from a statement, tell it. Possibly ask a few clarifying questions of your employer, AFTER you hear their testimony, IF they show up for the hearing. I now have a better understanding of how to present the facts of this case and will do that and hope for the best.
Please, in all arguments and provisions of info about what happened, do not use the word "they" unless you specify if you are talking about the employer or the unemployment system. What you write is full of what "they" did, and it's very confusing, even on here. It would be confusing to a hearing officer.
Please remove from your mind and your verbalizations all your outrage and insult that the system screwed up, that your employer lied, that your separation date was wrong, that you were not treated well by your employer, etc etc etc. "If they'll lie about that, what else will they lie about?" is not even going into the material, it's such a silly point to make, and makes you sound much less believable yourself.
As I said before, you are not going to convince the appeals officer of anything by your rhetoric. You simply organize your facts, and tell your story in a believable and logical manner.
For some reason, your employer did not get a chance, before the initial decision was made, to protest your claim. So you did not have to do this at the beginning of your claim. But this does not give you moral high ground or right to outrage here. You have to do this now, defend your right to receive benefits, based on the facts of the case.
Even if this was the fault of the unemployment system, as I have said before, when the problem is found, they DO definitely have a right to appeal the decision to grant you benefits. They always are allowed that chance before the initial decision to appeal. Then either of you is given the right to this second appeal, which is what you are about to have now.
Forget the stats about how only so many percent of decisions are overturned in the appeals hearing. That is not due to any bias in the system, it is due to the fact that most people who are in a hearing don't understand what they're trying to accomplish, or they go into the appeal without much of a case.
As we said, anybody can appeal, even if they did the very worst thing to get fired, or quit obviously. And those people don't win their cases. And remember, about half the time, it's an employer who is appealing, and they don't win any more often than the claimant does.
You don't get ten more appeals. You would be silly to pursue this if you lose it in appeals and then in the board of review hearing. From that point, there is the option to take the case to civil court, but usually if the appeal is too weak to be overturned when it is before people who know the unemployment laws backward and forward, it's not going to be approved in civil court either. And unemployment claims are just not enough money to hire attorneys and keep beating on it for much longer.
You will be in a very structured situation. I will try to create you a statement, after re reading what I believe to be going on, that will be something similar to what you will need to say to present your story in the most valid and convincing way. Re-read everything the other people have said to you. Realize they're making valid points.
Employers can fire you, for any reason, even with a doctor's statement that you were too ill to work on that particular day. They can do a discharge set up so that if you don't do this and so, you are fired. They will try to convolute this to mean that since you didn't do this and that, you were actually quitting.
And by the way, yes, the unemployment system does realize that employers will do this frequently. You don't need to point this out to them. The employer has a serious financial stake in whether you draw benefits or not. The appeals process is trying to determine which party, either you or the employer is the MOST believable in your version of events, and that either or both of you may be lying. The system doesn't care, pretty much assumes that one side or another will be bending the facts.
One of the determinations the hearing officer will try to use of whether you were fired or quit is "Did you know that your actions would result in......?"
And of course, you did know this. Your argument is that though you knew it would result in your termination, you were too ill to be there, could not speak, and were in no shape to take the certification exam. You explained this to your boss, expressed willingness to take it at another time, and were told this: (at this point, you quote what he said about it being over.)
You tried to give your employer your doctor's statement when you went in. You went in that day because you were instructed to clear out and bring your things back. You were too ill to drive yourself to work (forget listing the specific meds you were on) so had to have someone bring you in to do this.
Your understanding of the situation has always been that you were fired. From talking to former co-workers, you have heard that he has told others that you had been fired.
You did not resign from the job, it was not your intention to resign from the job, and you have never quit or resigned from a job without giving notice to your employer and would not do so.
When you begin your statement, address the wrong date that all this took place that is on the redet letter you have received. Say that this conversation with your employer in which he did, in fact, terminate you, took place on such and such date, not such and such date, as is stated in this information. The actual date you were last on the company's payroll is so and so, and you can document this by your check stubs, which you have here, which shows that you were paid through the week of or day of or whatever.
DO NOT say, "and this is because my employer is a liar, and they lied about this, and everything else in their statement is a dirty lie and I'm going to prove that to you here to day ladies and gentlemen of the jury!"
This is an administrative hearing. You are not there to appeal anything except the facts stated on the decision letter denying you benefits. We assume this states something like, "on such and such date, the claimant did voluntarily end his employment with xxxx company. Because the claimant was found to have quit the job without a valid work related reason, (probably some statues quoted in here somewhere) benefits are denied, and the claimant is determined to be overpaid for any benefits received." Notice how brief and concise this is?
As the appellant party, you'll be asked to speak first, probably, though not set in concrete. You present your statement. The employer then is given the opportunity to speak, IF they show up, remember. And then both of you will be given the opportunity to ask the other party questions. This is formal and structured. It is all recorded. You will both be sworn in. While you are speaking, they are not allowed to interrupt you or object. Same goes for you while they are speaking.
The hearing officer will ask questions of either of you if they have issues that need to be clarified. Then they will dismiss both parties, and in seven to ten days, they will issue another decision, either upholding the former decision, or overturning it.
At this point, either party, either you or the employer can ask for an appeal to the board of review. You are not present at this appeal, all the material is reviewed by a group of people familiar with case law who determine if it appears that the appropriate processes were used and laws were followed.
Do not even begin to argue in this hearing about your overpayment or whether or not you should have to pay it back if you lose your appeal. This is not the venue to deal with a possible overpayment, this is an appeal of the decision not to allow benefits because you quit the job. The hearing officer probably wouldn't allow it, but if you bring it up, a possible overpayment issue is going to cloud your story and weaken the point you should be trying to make.
What is that point? That you did not voluntarily quit the job. You were terminated from the job by so and so on such and such date because you were supposed to be there to take a certification exam, and you were too ill to do so (with a doctor's statement to show this.) You did not leave the job voluntarily, and it was not your intention to do so. Given the circumstances, and your health issue, you were not given any choice in the matter. Period. Stop talking.
thank you very much for your reply and I will incorporate some of that into my hearing. I plan on going through the process and hope it turns out ok.
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