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unlawful 5250 hold

xylene

Senior Member
#31
This is consumer advice. This is very expensive treatment and if you don't believe it is going to make your child better, you don't have to agree and you can fight the 5250. It certainly is very possible this treatment could make the situation much worse. It has for lots and lots and lots of people. You don't leave a mental hospital magically fixed. At best it is a first step in a treatment plan. A minor who made a hysterical parasuicidal gesture is not in need of long term committed care. That means the facility needs to explain the need for the extended stay. Mom is right to be concern how poorly she treated, poorly informed and poorly involved, since she be doing lot of the heavy lifting long after the hospital has stopped doing anything but counting their money.
 


LdiJ

Senior Member
#32
You have a misconception. A 5150 hold is 72 hours. If the doctor feels that a longer stay is necessary, then they can extend the involuntary stay by another 14 days. It's not correct to say that a 72 hours stay is "the regular standard", as each case is different.
Perhaps I worded that incorrectly. I have a problem with a doctor deciding, as a matter of policy, that all patients have to stay 5-7 days whether an evaluation demonstrates that they need it or not.
 
#33
Perhaps I worded that incorrectly. I have a problem with a doctor deciding, as a matter of policy, that all patients have to stay 5-7 days whether an evaluation demonstrates that they need it or not.
Well, when you become a mental health professional you are free to not set such standards. But there is nothing illegal or even unethical about a mental health professional doing so.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
#35
I also have a problem with a "standard" being that people must stay for 5-7 days when the regular standard is the 72 hour hold.
Show me where anyone said that everyone is forced to stay 5-7 days. The closest I can come to is a statement that on average, people stay 5-7 days.
 

Zigner

Senior Member
#36
Perhaps I worded that incorrectly. I have a problem with a doctor deciding, as a matter of policy, that all patients have to stay 5-7 days whether an evaluation demonstrates that they need it or not.
I don't believe that the doctor decided that. I believe that the facility bills for that based on past experiences.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
#37
Show me where anyone said that everyone is forced to stay 5-7 days. The closest I can come to is a statement that on average, people stay 5-7 days.
This, from post number 1:

I told the worker my daughter is only on a 72 hour hold I was told patients generally stay for 5-7 days so its company policy to bill for 4 days. My daughter hadn't even been evaluated by a doctor yet so I refused to pay for 4 days and the guy at billing told me that at the end of the 72 hours the doctor will ask for me to voluntarily leave my daughter for 2 more days and I said and if I refuse? He said if you refuse then the doctor will put your daughter on a 5250 hold and she will be required to stay for 14 days this is your daughter were talking about so which would you prefer
I think that is pretty clear as far as "forced" is concerned. Now, perhaps the doctor has an overzealous billing agent who is willing to lie about what the doctor will or won't do in order to collect money, but that agent was pretty clear about what would happen.
 

Zigner

Senior Member
#38
That happened two days in. Two days plus two days is four days (not 5-7). Furthermore, it's entirely possible that this request was communicated verbally between the doctor and the billing department. Lastly, if the doctor felt that the child needed treatment beyond the 72 hour hold (for any additional length of time) and the parent refused, the doctor is well within his rights to seek a 5250 hold.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
#39
That happened two days in. Two days plus two days is four days (not 5-7). Furthermore, it's entirely possible that this request was communicated verbally between the doctor and the billing department. Lastly, if the doctor felt that the child needed treatment beyond the 72 hour hold (for any additional length of time) and the parent refused, the doctor is well within his rights to seek a 5250 hold.
No, it was clear that it was for two extra days after the 72 hours expired. I agree that if the doctor believes that the child needs care beyond the 72 hours that the doctor would be within his rights to discuss the issue with the parents, explain what further care the child needs, and then, if the parents do not demonstrate that they have a plan for further care for the child, that the doctor can TRY to seek a 5250 hold.

I do not agree that any doctor has the right to arbitrarily force any kind of health care on any patient. That is part of our constitutional rights. If the patient or the patient's parents do not agree with the doctor's health care plan then the doctor would need a court order to keep the patient.
 

Zigner

Senior Member
#40
No, it was clear that it was for two extra days after the 72 hours expired.
I stand corrected.

I agree that if the doctor believes that the child needs care beyond the 72 hours that the doctor would be within his rights to discuss the issue with the parents, explain what further care the child needs, and then, if the parents do not demonstrate that they have a plan for further care for the child, that the doctor can TRY to seek a 5250 hold.
That's not quite how it works. The 5250 hold is automatic except that, after 4 days a hearing must be held to determine if it's actually needed. For that first 4 days, though, there is no way to refuse it.

I do not agree that any doctor has the right to arbitrarily force any kind of health care on any patient. That is part of our constitutional rights. If the patient or the patient's parents do not agree with the doctor's health care plan then the doctor would need a court order to keep the patient.
The key (and saving) word in this is "arbitrarily". Yes, I agree that the doctor should not and cannot (legally) use arbitrary decisions to place a patient on an involuntary hold.


Having said the above, I am beginning to waver a bit on this one. Doing the math, 5-7 days is an interesting time, because it represents the maximum time the doctor/facility could hold a patient before a hearing is held. That may be a coincidence, or it may not be.

In any case, the law is what it is.
 

quincy

Senior Member
#41
What is the name of your state? California ... ... My daughters 72 hours is up tonight at 9pm and I'm trying to find out if I need to hire a lawyer Thank you for your time and responce
You can speak to an attorney.

Your daughter was admitted to the hospital at 9 pm? Are there doctor releases signed at 9 pm?