• FreeAdvice has a new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, effective May 25, 2018.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our Terms of Service and use of cookies.

Wrongful termination

Accident - Bankruptcy - Criminal Law / DUI - Business - Consumer - Employment - Family - Immigration - Real Estate - Tax - Traffic - Wills   Please click a topic or scroll down for more.

Patricia Norton

New member
What is the name of your state?Tennessee.
My employer terminated me and is contesting my unemployment. I did have issues with attendance and had been written up 2 times. My last issue I had to call in due to my child being sick. This put me up to the level of another write up which led to termination since it was my 3rd write up in 12 months. With my last issue being due to my child being sick, what do you feel are my chances of winning my unemployment hearing?
 


cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
FYI, based on the facts available to us this is not a wrongful termination. Not even close.

Others may disagree and we have a former UI specialist from your state who posts here; if she says I'm wrong, I'll defer to her. But I'm going with 50/50 at best.
 

Patricia Norton

New member
FYI, based on the facts available to us this is not a wrongful termination. Not even close.

Others may disagree and we have a former UI specialist from your state who posts here; if she says I'm wrong, I'll defer to her. But I'm going with 50/50 at best.
Thank you.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Before we even get to unemployment I suggest it should be determined if you had any FMLA protections for any of the missed time.

These are the criteria

The employee must have been employed with the company for 12 months

The employee must have worked at least 1,250 hours during the 12 months prior to the start of FMLA leave

The employer is one who employs 50 or more employees within a 75-mile radius of the worksite

And the last (and the one i suspect actually doesn’t qualify;

You must require the time off to care for a serious health condition, either your own or a spouse, or parent

Here is what is considered to be a serious health condition

inpatient care

incapacity for more than three days with continuing treatment by a health care provider

incapacity relating to pregnancy or prenatal care

chronic serious health conditions

permanent or long-term incapacity, and

certain conditions requiring multiple treatments.

A minor illness is not considered a serious health condition.

So, were any of the missed work incidents something that might be covered under FMLA?
 
Last edited:

commentator

Senior Member
I am the TN unemployment person. I have one question for you. Did you take your child to the doctor? Do you have a medical excuse for that last absence? If so, produce it. If you have to, go to his physician and get them to give you a medical excuse stating that you were at their office on xxxxxxx (that particular last absence) day, seeking medical treatment for your child. If you have this, you'll very likely to prevail in the hearing. If you don't, pretty much I'd say you won't.

We are assuming this is the hearing, after the initial decision, correct? You've already been told via letter that you have been denied, and told that you have so many days to file an appeal, and you have filed such an appeal, and are now scheduled for a telephone or in person hearing at which both you and the employer are present, correct?

If this is just a "fact finding" hearing, held before the first decision is made, you'll still have about the same chances, because you either did or did not take your child to the doctor or medical clinic on that day or not. There's not much else you can do at this point other than get that medical proof if you can get it.

They look at it that you cannot avoid being so sick you need medical treatment, or you cannot avoid having a child get so ill that you need to get them medical treatment. But even if the child was quite ill, if you didn't take them to the doctor for whatever reason, you can still be considered to have committed plain old misconduct if you are absent the number of times they consider excessive in their policy. Did you know about the policy, did you know that one more absence would probably lead to your termination before the day you had to call out due to your child's illness? That issue will come up.

The thing about whether you qualify for FMLA is another issue and has nothing to do with unemployment. We're talking about it because you mentioned "wrongful termination." This term has a very specific meaning, and is not much related to whether or not you are able to get approved for unemployment insurance. If you are approved for unemployment, it costs the employer money. Therefore they don't generally want to have you receive unemployment insurance after they terminate you.

To keep that from happening, they have to show you were terminated for a valid work related misconduct reason. Absenteeism is a very easy thing for them to justify, as they probably have clearly stated policies concerning attendance. Violate them without a really unavoidable reason, such as a medical emergency and they very likely can keep you from being approved for unemployment. If you can show that your last absence was unavoidable, in that your child was so ill they needed medical treatment, that is generally considered good reason for the absence, even though you knew you were likely to be terminated for it.

It is perfectly legal in MOST cases for them to terminate you due to absences, regardless of excuse, even with a terribly ill child (unless FMLA comes into play) but in general, the unemployment system says you can't avoid being sick or having your child get sick, if you can prove that it was a serious enough situation to require a medical treatment.
 

PayrollHRGuy

Senior Member
But even if the child was quite ill, if you didn't take them to the doctor for whatever reason, you can still be considered to have committed plain old misconduct if you are absent the number of times they consider excessive in their policy. Did you know about the policy, did you know that one more absence would probably lead to your termination before the day you had to call out due to your child's illness?
I think it is plain that the OP had been put on notice that further absences would result in further discipline probably termination.

I did have issues with attendance and had been written up 2 times. My last issue I had to call in due to my child being sick. This put me up to the level of another write up which led to termination since it was my 3rd write up in 12 months.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
I am the TN unemployment person. I have one question for you. Did you take your child to the doctor? Do you have a medical excuse for that last absence? If so, produce it. If you have to, go to his physician and get them to give you a medical excuse stating that you were at their office on xxxxxxx (that particular last absence) day, seeking medical treatment for your child. If you have this, you'll very likely to prevail in the hearing. If you don't, pretty much I'd say you won't.

We are assuming this is the hearing, after the initial decision, correct? You've already been told via letter that you have been denied, and told that you have so many days to file an appeal, and you have filed such an appeal, and are now scheduled for a telephone or in person hearing at which both you and the employer are present, correct?

If this is just a "fact finding" hearing, held before the first decision is made, you'll still have about the same chances, because you either did or did not take your child to the doctor or medical clinic on that day or not. There's not much else you can do at this point other than get that medical proof if you can get it.

They look at it that you cannot avoid being so sick you need medical treatment, or you cannot avoid having a child get so ill that you need to get them medical treatment. But even if the child was quite ill, if you didn't take them to the doctor for whatever reason, you can still be considered to have committed plain old misconduct if you are absent the number of times they consider excessive in their policy. Did you know about the policy, did you know that one more absence would probably lead to your termination before the day you had to call out due to your child's illness? That issue will come up.

The thing about whether you qualify for FMLA is another issue and has nothing to do with unemployment. We're talking about it because you mentioned "wrongful termination." This term has a very specific meaning, and is not much related to whether or not you are able to get approved for unemployment insurance. If you are approved for unemployment, it costs the employer money. Therefore they don't generally want to have you receive unemployment insurance after they terminate you.

To keep that from happening, they have to show you were terminated for a valid work related misconduct reason. Absenteeism is a very easy thing for them to justify, as they probably have clearly stated policies concerning attendance. Violate them without a really unavoidable reason, such as a medical emergency and they very likely can keep you from being approved for unemployment. If you can show that your last absence was unavoidable, in that your child was so ill they needed medical treatment, that is generally considered good reason for the absence, even though you knew you were likely to be terminated for it.

It is perfectly legal in MOST cases for them to terminate you due to absences, regardless of excuse, even with a terribly ill child (unless FMLA comes into play) but in general, the unemployment system says you can't avoid being sick or having your child get sick, if you can prove that it was a serious enough situation to require a medical treatment.
Actually, fmla will have something to do with UI if it applies. If the time missed is protected, that would mean the termination is not due to misconduct and op would be eligible for UI benefits. Additionally op would have other avenues to explore seeking reinstatement or compensation.

FMLA does not necessarily require a person seek medical attention of the specific even to be covered under FMLA. Some chronic conditions will allow a person to miss time from work simply due to being too ill to report to work. As an example; if the ops child has cystic fibrosis and required the constant attention of the op on the days they missed, even if the child was not taken to a doctor for the specific event, FMLA protections apply. There are many medical issues that would allow for a person to simply miss time from work and fall under FMLA protections.

While I’m not saying FMLA does apply in this situation, I believe it should be determined if it applies since if it does, the ops argument is much different than if it doesn’t
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
I somehow suspect that if the OP had submitted FMLA paperwork at any time she would have said so.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
I somehow suspect that if the OP had submitted FMLA paperwork at any time she would have said so.
Why would the op have submitted fmla paperwork? Is it not the employers obligation to provide the paperwork to the employee if they believe it is applicable? If the employer failed to provide the paperwork, would it invalidate the applicability of FMLA.
 

PayrollHRGuy

Senior Member
I'd be willing to bet that this thread has NOTHING to do with FMLA. It is an EE with a history of attendance issues and written up for it. What may well be his last absence at this employer, just happened to be a kid with a tummy ache. I hear this story on at least a bi-weekly basis.

People are under the impression that if they or their kids are sick, with or without, a Dr's note that they are immune to getting in trouble for not being at work.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
I'd be willing to bet that this thread has NOTHING to do with FMLA. It is an EE with a history of attendance issues and written up for it. What may well be his last absence at this employer, just happened to be a kid with a tummy ache. I hear this story on at least a bi-weekly basis.

People are under the impression that if they or their kids are sick, with or without, a Dr's note that they are immune to getting in trouble for not being at work.
I don’t totally disagree but is there reason you seem to have an aversion to at least ensure it has nothing to do with FMLA?
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
All right, if you insist on every step being mentioned directly.

I'm willing to bet that if the employer had ever provided her with FMLA paperwork and she had turned it in, she would have mentioned it.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
My point from my last response to you was:

What if FMLA does apply but employer neglected to provide the FMLA paperwork for any missed time it may apply; Does that somehow negate FMLA?


Many employers are derelict in initiating fmla documentation. Many employers do not understand the law and due to,that, are derelict in their obligations to initiate the process?

Again, I’m not saying it does apply but given the absences appear to be due to an ill child, I simply would like to know it doesn’t apply rather than discounting the possibility. It would make the ops life regarding UI much simpler if it does apply.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
As I read the post, ONE of the absences was due to a sick child. The rest were not. That it happened to be the last absence means she could have some chance at UI. But it does not bode well for FMLA.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
As I read the post, ONE of the absences was due to a sick child. The rest were not. That it happened to be the last absence means she could have some chance at UI. But it does not bode well for FMLA.
It matters not if only one incident, whether it be the first or last, be fmla protected. If any of them were it would remove the incident from the employees “bad stuff” column and would mean she wouldn’t have been fired for cause.
 

Find the Right Lawyer for Your Legal Issue!

Fast, Free, and Confidential
data-ad-format="auto">
Top