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Unemployment Fraud (Yet To Be Caught)

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thecoolcalm

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
California

Hi all, this is my first time ever posting on a forum and for good reason. I’ve seen the responder “commentator” who is well versed in these situations and hope she can give some ideas.

So, I have a friend who committed UI Fraud. The question that I pose for my friend is, should he just call the UI investigation unit ahead of time to admit and set up a payment plan? Should he just wait and deal with it when it comes? Is there a way to reduce the odds of criminal prosecution? How on earth has the cross match not picked his first over-payment? Is there a potential that it could fall through the cracks (not that it matters, as he is adamant about paying it back and calling if it mitigates prosecution). He is guilt ridden now that he understands the extent of his transgression and looks to rectify it. He has no criminal background and works a full time job and doesn’t want to lose the career he has worked for due to his youthful greed. Please someone just ease his mind.

Commentator this one is definitely for you. But I would love to get as much advice as possible for my friend. Thanks in advance everyone.
 
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cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Commentator is definitely your best resource but one thing I have learned from her over the years is that they are far more interested in getting their money back than they are in criminal prosecution. They can't and won't prosecute everyone who commits fraud; they'll reserve that for the ones who fight them on re-payment. If your friend establishes a payment plan and keeps to it, that's likely to be the end of it. (No, it's not going to fall through the cracks - it may not have picked up yet but it's only a matter of time.)
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Frankly, I hope this one IS picked up for prosecution. This is EXACTLY the type of person they are looking for...one who figures "Meh, I'll just do it until they catch me..."
 

thecoolcalm

Junior Member
You were someone I hoped answered

Commentator is definitely your best resource but one thing I have learned from her over the years is that they are far more interested in getting their money back than they are in criminal prosecution. They can't and won't prosecute everyone who commits fraud; they'll reserve that for the ones who fight them on re-payment. If your friend establishes a payment plan and keeps to it, that's likely to be the end of it. (No, it's not going to fall through the cracks - it may not have picked up yet but it's only a matter of time.)
Thanks cbg. I noticed you on these threads and really take your advice to heart. One question that my friend would like to know. Should he just call the fraud department now or should he wait until he is contacted.

Commentator, I’m still looking for you!!! Thanks in advance.
 

thecoolcalm

Junior Member
Frankly, I hope this one IS picked up for prosecution. This is EXACTLY the type of person they are looking for...one who figures "Meh, I'll just do it until they catch me..."
Zigner, I understand your thought process and take it to heart. My friend knows there is no excuse and just wants to mitigate prosecution. Prosecution destroys people’s lives for extended periods. There are crimes committed everyday and some people are remorseful and guilt ridden and try to repay their debt to society. Mistakes are made. But, some citizens are worth more to their communities out of the prison system than in.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Zigner, I understand your thought process and take it to heart. My friend knows there is no excuse and just wants to mitigate prosecution. Prosecution destroys people’s lives for extended periods. There are crimes committed everyday and some people are remorseful and guilt ridden and try to repay their debt to society. Mistakes are made. But, some citizens are worth more to their communities out of the prison system than in.
See, the problem is that your friend is NOT remorseful. He made a calculated economic decision and CHOSE to break the law. I don't believe there is any guilt or remorse in your friend, save that of the possibility of being caught.
 

thecoolcalm

Junior Member
Emotion is not black and white

See, the problem is that your friend is NOT remorseful. He made a calculated economic decision and CHOSE to break the law. I don't believe there is any guilt or remorse in your friend, save that of the possibility of being caught.
See, remorse and guilt is subjective and not black and white. I understand your ire with the situation as you should be. The truth of the matter is. I know that if my friend wasn’t remorseful, he wouldn’t be thinking about turning himself in. If a man murdered someone and got away with it, and then one year later without investigation, he admitted to it... he is remorseful for his actions and has a guilt on his mind and is look to rectify and absolve it. That’s just the truth of the matter. Someone who is not remorseful could careless and wouldn’t take the steps to fix the issue. At the end of the day the only thing that is of concern is mitigating the potential of prosecution to the full extent of the law. He has no issue with handling his debt and even incurring the penalty that comes with it.

I do appreciate your opinion and viewpoint as you are being honest and of strong moral conviction. I hope my friend can learn from his mistake as well as your comments and learn to follow a better moral path.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
See, remorse and guilt is subjective and not black and white. I understand your ire with the situation as you should be. The truth of the matter is. I know that if my friend wasn’t remorseful, he wouldn’t be thinking about turning himself in. If a man murdered someone and got away with it, and then one year later without investigation, he admitted to it... he is remorseful for his actions and has a guilt on his mind and is look to rectify and absolve it. That’s just the truth of the matter. Someone who is not remorseful could careless and wouldn’t take the steps to fix the issue. At the end of the day the only thing that is of concern is mitigating the potential of prosecution to the full extent of the law. He has no issue with handling his debt and even incurring the penalty that comes with it.

I do appreciate your opinion and viewpoint as you are being honest and of strong moral conviction. I hope my friend can learn from his mistake as well as your comments and learn to follow a better moral path.
The problem is that you friend did it twice. Not once, but twice. Once was a mistake, twice was deliberate and calculated. I suspect that your friend's best bet would be a consult with a local criminal attorney, one that specializes in that type of fraud if one is available in your area.
 

thecoolcalm

Junior Member
Thank you for the advice

The problem is that you friend did it twice. Not once, but twice. Once was a mistake, twice was deliberate and calculated. I suspect that your friend's best bet would be a consult with a local criminal attorney, one that specializes in that type of fraud if one is available in your area.
Thank you for the advice to gain counsel. I’ve reached out now to get a free consultation. The question that i pose as well is, would it be in my friends best interest to reach out now or wait until it is uncovered. Will willful admission and immediate attempt to rectify overpayment mitigate a criminal charge? Will it help his case?

Thanks for your posts guys, my friend thoroughly appreciates it
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Thank you for the advice to gain counsel. I’ve reached out now to get a free consultation. The question that i pose as well is, would it be in my friends best interest to reach out now or wait until it is uncovered. Will willful admission and immediate attempt to rectify overpayment mitigate a criminal charge? Will it help his case?

Thanks for your posts guys, my friend thoroughly appreciates it
Perhaps your "friend" ought to handle this.
 

commentator

Senior Member
I'm here, and we can moralize all day, but in the long run, people do this. All the time, every day, every week, every month people do this. You cannot set up a system that will jail them all. It'd be very cost prohibitive and would fill the courts and jails far beyond capacity.

And how well I know, how many times I have heard, when the average person on the outside sees that "11,000 people in the state of XXXX committed unemployment fraud, in the amount of $XXXXXXXXX last year" they are incensed. They think that much money was successfully stolen from the unemployment system.

What they don't realize is that the reason they are reading this figure is that 11,000 people did it, and GOT CAUGHT and were determined to be overpaid $XXXXXXXXXX dollars.

It costs taxpayer money to run the system and it would be lovely if everyone did what they were supposed to, and no one cheated and had to be traced and caught and collected on, but it is not like those people were off living high on that money, getting away with committing that fraud (if they were, we wouldn't know about it!) and that it was coming directly from the taxpayers pockets.

People do attempt unemployment fraud because they think they'll get away with it. They may figure "Well, I've been working all this time, and I've never needed it before....." and "Its just SOOOO easy, they must almost want me to do it, they've not caught me yet...they probably won't...." In short they do it just because they think it's easy, and they like getting the money and it's a cheap thrill sort of risk taking for them....all the reasons people steal.

What they don't realize is that they are about as stupid as the person who takes money from the cash register, not realizing that there is a camera trained on them the whole time they are in there. The system will definitely catch them if they are working as legal tax paying employees, working under their own social security number, and many many times, even if they aren't, simply because they've got family or friends who will someday get mad at them and tell on them.

But I have got the answer to why you haven't been caught yet. The state's unemployment tax collection and reporting system takes information from employers on a quarterly basis. they collect taxes on a regular basis for taxes several quarters in arrears of the present claim quarters. So what has happened is that the wages on the new job you got wasn't in the system yet. There was no evidence of fraud that popped up when the system cross-matched YET. But believe me, unless one or the other of you, either you or your employer has got your social security number down incorrectly, the truth will come out. (And yes, there have been people who deliberately messed up their social security number to try to avoid those cross matches.)When last years state and federal income taxes are filed under your ss#, that may very well be the pop up trigger.

So talk to them, the sooner the better. How can you avoid being prosecuted? There's no guarantee, either way. As it was noted, your fraud was consistent and deliberate, it happened repeatedly, every single week that you filed for a claim while working was an act of fraud, it was clearly intended to be fraud and it was over the long term. You certainly can't plead ignorance or failure to understand and have the intent to commit fraud. That's a scary place to be in.

Skip the useless "I'm so remorseful, please forgive me!" Everybody is remorseful when they're caught. What you are doing now is sheer damage control. You know it and the agency will know it. If you get to them before they get to you, which should very well be happening soon, so your window is closing, it may help you. Tell them what you have done.Be quiet, cooperative and forthright about what happened. It is not their job to forgive. It is their job to recoup the money and put it back into the proper places in the system, with penalties if deserved (I think you can count on having these) which go into the general unemployment pool.

Be very willing and happy to set up a payment plan. This will take a while, as they will have to do an investigation, and then a fraud determination. Be very sure not to overpromise on your repayment plan. It would be much worse for you if you set up some really high level of repayment and then you were not able to meet it and went into arrears on your fraud repayment, regardless of what happens to you in the future (as in "I lost my job! or "I came down with a dreadful illness!" )

Many people will try to give you some advice which does not apply to an agency investigation of fraud, which is shut up and lawyer up, do not admit to anything, yada yada, This is not applicable UNLESS you are actually served and notified that you will be prosecuted in the court system of the state. This is actually quite good advice IF you are recommended to the district attorney for prosecution, good advice for anyone charged with a crime. That has not happened to you yet. You do not, at this point, need an attorney, they would not likely be able to get you any different deal than you can get for yourself dealing with the agency directly.

But if you do not cooperate with the fraud investigation unit, if you refuse to talk to them, if you wait for them to catch up with you, and then ignore their letters and contacts, that just makes them work harder to get you and feel more eager to give you the max in punishment for having done what so many people have done. And if they want to, they can. Remember that, in all your dealings with them.

Everything, every communication you will get from the fraud investigation unit of the state of CA will mention that you are in danger of being prosecuted under code yada yada of the CA criminal....and may be subject to fines, incarceration, etc.. you know what I mean. That is on every letter they send out. It is true, and of course is for effect. They want to hear from you.
Do not let it panic you.

Skip all the sweet remorse. You cheated. You stole from the system. You haven't been caught yet, but you WILL BE. It could be a while, but you are busted, eventually. It will linger in your system like a shingles virus if you don't take care of it now.

Just do as much as you can from this point on, to remedy this, to make it right as much as it lies in your power to do it. And above all, DO NOT DO IT AGAIN. You want to know who they really LOVE to prosecute? People they catch more than once.
 
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