Help with response to establishment of child support

[CSO286]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MN

I’m in need of some assistance from anybody who can help me. I split up with my children’s father about a year ago. At that time, I filed for child support through my county (Rice). It took about a year for the county to finally issue out a notice of motion and motion for establishment of child support. I was served on Sunday.

Long story short, I don’t agree with the numbers that they used in figuring out the father’s income. I need to know what form to use to disagree with the numbers the county gave me. When I look at online court forms they are all in response to an actual order. We don’t have an actual order yet. I want to respond to the motion for establishment of child support. Any ideas? I called the county and they told me to go on the website, but everything on there is a response to an order and they all say since the order, modify the order etc.

Any help would be appreciated.

OP, I work in MN child support.

So you were served with a proposed order for support and you disagree withe numbers used? Easy fix. Contact (in writing) the worker and request a hearing.
(EDIT: Your paperwork tells you ^^^ that much.)

What you received was a proposed order. If neither party responds within 20 days, it goes for the magistrate's signature and becomes the actual order. It's not hard to contest what is there.

Why do you say that he is not entitled to the 12% parenting time adjustment? If he sees the children four days a month and for any kind of extended time in the summer, then, he'd most likely meet the min requirements to qualify for it. What does the current custody order say?


You stated that for most of last year he was "working under the table." Income earned this way CANNOT be counted as it cannot be proved (via dept of economic security reports, employer verifications, etc). CSED has to use the numbers it can back up. Potential income is used when an absent parent is deliberately unemployed or underemployed (think a absent parent working at the local shell station when he holds a degree in accounting).

Additional questions:
Does he pay child support for other children?
Does he have other children (of his own) living with him?

 

[Ohiogal]

If nobody ever READS the info, what's the point of PROVIDING the info??



The MN Judicial Branch site:
•The court does NOT publish forms to start child support.
•If you do not see a link to forms that fit your situation, visit your local law library to find forms, or talk to a lawyer.

http://www.co.rice.mn.us/departments/law-library

http://www.co.rice.mn.us/sites/default/files/pdfs/uploadedcontent/forms/llinventory.pdf



Note to Self: You could just be smoking pot in the park. Consider that for an activity, instead.

Note to you: at least it is legal in Colorado. Right?

 

[CSO286]

Note to you: at least it is legal in Colorado. Right?

OG, she got the link right. MN county gov links read county, (county name), state.us

Follow the link.

 

[Silverplum]

Note to you: at least it is legal in Colorado. Right?

Right!

I was being inflammatory.

 

[Ohiogal]

OG, she got the link right. MN county gov links read county, (county name), state.us

Follow the link.

Psst.... I was responding to SP's last line. Didn't say she didn't get the link right.

 

[ajs09876]

OP, I work in MN child support.

So you were served with a proposed order for support and you disagree withe numbers used? Easy fix. Contact (in writing) the worker and request a hearing.
(EDIT: Your paperwork tells you ^^^ that much.)

The paperwork gives us a hearing date, so I don't think I need to request a hearing.

What you received was a proposed order. If neither party responds within 20 days, it goes for the magistrate's signature and becomes the actual order. It's not hard to contest what is there.

Why do you say that he is not entitled to the 12% parenting time adjustment? If he sees the children four days a month and for any kind of extended time in the summer, then, he'd most likely meet the min requirements to qualify for it. What does the current custody order say?

He's not entitled to the 12% adjustment because he doesn't have the kids more than four nights a month. He doesn't take them for extended time in the summer. We have no custody order. Which is why he shouldn't get the adjustment.

MINNESOTA STATUTES 2012 518A.36
518A.36 PARENTING EXPENSE ADJUSTMENT.

(b) If there is not a court order awarding parenting time, the court shall determine the child
support award without consideration of the parenting expense adjustment. If a parenting time
order is subsequently issued or is issued in the same proceeding, then the child support order shall
include application of the parenting expense adjustment.

You stated that for most of last year he was "working under the table." Income earned this way CANNOT be counted as it cannot be proved (via dept of economic security reports, employer verifications, etc). CSED has to use the numbers it can back up. Potential income is used when an absent parent is deliberately unemployed or underemployed (think a absent parent working at the local shell station when he holds a degree in accounting).

So, what about statute

518A.32 POTENTIAL INCOME.


Subdivision 1.General.

This section applies to child support orders, including orders for past support or reimbursement of public assistance, issued under this chapter, chapter 256, 257, 518B, or 518C. If a parent is voluntarily unemployed, underemployed, or employed on a less than full-time basis, or there is no direct evidence of any income, child support must be calculated based on a determination of potential income.

It says over and over again in my paperwork I got from the county, "there is no direct evidence of XXXXXXXX's income" because he didn't fill out the paperwork. He knew if he filled it out correctly then it would be based on his current job which he is making substantially more than he made on paper last year. So, according to statute child support "must be calculated based on a determination of potential income." Am I close?

I'm just trying to do what's fair. He hasn't supported the kids at all during this whole mess. I don't even have a problem taking the number they came up with. The only problem I'm having is they're putting almost all of the child support they determined he was supposed to pay in a "reserve" that isn't technically owed. They say he doesn't have the available income to pay. But he does! Even by their own numbers he does. The problem is they are averaging out his entire last year where he was working for cash. He also used to make a lot more money when we were together. As soon as we split, he quit his high paying job and started working for cash. They also put all his share of daycare and medical support in this reserve. Do you know what that means? Is it just racking up? Or is it like he never owes it.

Additional questions:
Does he pay child support for other children?

No

Does he have other children (of his own) living with him?

No.

Thanks CSO for any help you can give me.

 

[CSO286]

The paperwork gives us a hearing date, so I don't think I need to request a hearing.



He's not entitled to the 12% adjustment because he doesn't have the kids more than four nights a month. He doesn't take them for extended time in the summer. We have no custody order. Which is why he shouldn't get the adjustment.

MINNESOTA STATUTES 2012 518A.36
518A.36 PARENTING EXPENSE ADJUSTMENT.

(b) If there is not a court order awarding parenting time, the court shall determine the child
support award without consideration of the parenting expense adjustment. If a parenting time
order is subsequently issued or is issued in the same proceeding, then the child support order shall
include application of the parenting expense adjustment.




So, what about statute

518A.32 POTENTIAL INCOME.


Subdivision 1.General.

This section applies to child support orders, including orders for past support or reimbursement of public assistance, issued under this chapter, chapter 256, 257, 518B, or 518C. If a parent is voluntarily unemployed, underemployed, or employed on a less than full-time basis, or there is no direct evidence of any income, child support must be calculated based on a determination of potential income.

It says over and over again in my paperwork I got from the county, "there is no direct evidence of XXXXXXXX's income" because he didn't fill out the paperwork. He knew if he filled it out correctly then it would be based on his current job which he is making substantially more than he made on paper last year. So, according to statute child support "must be calculated based on a determination of potential income." Am I close?

I'm just trying to do what's fair. He hasn't supported the kids at all during this whole mess. I don't even have a problem taking the number they came up with. The only problem I'm having is they're putting almost all of the child support they determined he was supposed to pay in a "reserve" that isn't technically owed. They say he doesn't have the available income to pay. But he does! Even by their own numbers he does. The problem is they are averaging out his entire last year where he was working for cash. He also used to make a lot more money when we were together. As soon as we split, he quit his high paying job and started working for cash. They also put all his share of daycare and medical support in this reserve. Do you know what that means? Is it just racking up? Or is it like he never owes it.



No



No.

Thanks CSO for any help you can give me.

So, you show up in court, and argue that you feel the county should use other numbers--and then you have to explain why. "You honor I beleve that he us voluntriy underemployed/working for cash. He used to make $XXXX.XX per month and I beleive you should impute him wages equal to that amount and here's why......"

The "potential income" that the county would most likely use would be an imputation of either full time min wage or 150% of that amount. In Minnesota, that amounts to a monthly income of $1256 or $1884. Unless you can prove that the NCP can and should be making more money.

(I can go into more depth on imputation of full time or 150% of FT vs imputing wages equal to work history, but that really is a county-by-county policy and depends on so many things that it really is a case-by-case determination.)

Re the parentling time adjustment: Is there a court order for custody/parenting time?
If there is, the court will be bound to use the numbers there to determine eligibility for the Parenting Time Adjustment. If there is no order, the courts will use whatever the parties agree the ncp has to determine eligibility. If the parties don't agree as to whether or not the ncp has the time he is claiming, then the magistrate will use the testimony of the parties to make that decision.

RE the "reserve". Does or order state that medical support and child care support are reserved? Please, tell me exactly what the order reads on that line. I think I know what it says, and I believe you are simply misinterpreting it. I can help, but only with the exact wording (minus names).

 

[Proserpina]

So, you show up in court, and argue that you feel the county should use other numbers--and then you have to explain why. "You honor I beleve that he us voluntriy underemployed/working for cash. He used to make $XXXX.XX per month and I beleive you should impute him wages equal to that amount and here's why......"

The "potential income" that the county would most likely use would be an imputation of either full time min wage or 150% of that amount. In Minnesota, that amounts to a monthly income of $1256 or $1884. Unless you can prove that the NCP can and should be making more money.

(I can go into more depth on imputation of full time or 150% of FT vs imputing wages equal to work history, but that really is a county-by-county policy and depends on so many things that it really is a case-by-case determination.)

Re the parentling time adjustment: Is there a court order for custody/parenting time?
If there is, the court will be bound to use the numbers there to determine eligibility for the Parenting Time Adjustment. If there is no order, the courts will use whatever the parties agree the ncp has to determine eligibility. If the parties don't agree as to whether or not the ncp has the time he is claiming, then the magistrate will use the testimony of the parties to make that decision.

RE the "reserve". Does or order state that medical support and child care support are reserved? Please, tell me exactly what the order reads on that line. I think I know what it says, and I believe you are simply misinterpreting it. I can help, but only with the exact wording (minus names).

I just want to thank you, CSO. This is amazing information and I for one really appreciate the time you've taken to explain things.

You're awesome.

 

[CSO286]

I just want to thank you, CSO. This is amazing information and I for one really appreciate the time you've taken to explain things.

You're awesome.

I just may cry.....

You totally made my day.

Tea?

 

[ajs09876]

So, you show up in court, and argue that you feel the county should use other numbers--and then you have to explain why. "You honor I beleve that he us voluntriy underemployed/working for cash. He used to make $XXXX.XX per month and I beleive you should impute him wages equal to that amount and here's why......"

The "potential income" that the county would most likely use would be an imputation of either full time min wage or 150% of that amount. In Minnesota, that amounts to a monthly income of $1256 or $1884. Unless you can prove that the NCP can and should be making more money.

(I can go into more depth on imputation of full time or 150% of FT vs imputing wages equal to work history, but that really is a county-by-county policy and depends on so many things that it really is a case-by-case determination.)

Re the parentling time adjustment: Is there a court order for custody/parenting time?
If there is, the court will be bound to use the numbers there to determine eligibility for the Parenting Time Adjustment. If there is no order, the courts will use whatever the parties agree the ncp has to determine eligibility. If the parties don't agree as to whether or not the ncp has the time he is claiming, then the magistrate will use the testimony of the parties to make that decision.

RE the "reserve". Does or order state that medical support and child care support are reserved? Please, tell me exactly what the order reads on that line. I think I know what it says, and I believe you are simply misinterpreting it. I can help, but only with the exact wording (minus names).

The paperwork says

*Beginning October 1, 2013, XXXXX ongoing basic support shall be $XXX.XX

*Beginning October 1, 2013, XXXXX ongoing medical support shall be reserved.

*Beginning October 1, 2013, XXXXX ongoing Child Care Support shall be reserved


So, would I be smart to type up a letter and send it to the magistrate and serve it on my ex saying a disagree? The attorney I had a brief consultation with said this particular magistrate is a stickler for the rules being followed although runs a very informal hearing. (whatever that means)

Can you go a little in depth on the 150% vs full time determination? I am in Rice County if that helps. If you look back at his work history (even the 2 years the county pulled) he was making between 15 and 16 dollars an hour plus a part time job (he's been doing that for about 3 years prior to us splitting up) Now, if you look at his current job (which he currently has) if you do the math on hours worked vs. what he was paid he's making 13.10 an hour. Do you think I have a good case at getting it set at the 150% of minimum wage (10.88 an hour) or at least taking away this reserve stuff?

Thank you for your help, by the way. I appreciate it a lot. Not many of us have been here before and it's nice to hear from someone who actually works within the system and can help us understand!

 

[CSO286]

The paperwork says

*Beginning October 1, 2013, XXXXX ongoing basic support shall be $XXX.XX

*Beginning October 1, 2013, XXXXX ongoing medical support shall be reserved.

*Beginning October 1, 2013, XXXXX ongoing Child Care Support shall be reserved

What this means is that they are not addressing medical support and child care at this point. It means two things: That currently the NCP is not in a position to pay a med and child care obligation right now. It also means that when/if the ncp is in a better financial position, these items can be addressed going back to the date they were reserved. (Not a guarantee that arrears will be set going back that far--in fact, it's unlikely, but it leaves the possibility open for it.)

So, would I be smart to type up a letter and send it to the magistrate and serve it on my ex saying a disagree? The attorney I had a brief consultation with said this particular magistrate is a stickler for the rules being followed although runs a very informal hearing. (whatever that means)

Ummm, no. You may not write the Magistrate a letter. That's what's called an ex parte communication and the Magistrate isn't permitted to read it. You appear at the hearing and argue your points. And frankly, your attorney will give you far better advice here than I could, because he or she knows your county, your Magistrates, and your court climate far better than I do.

Can you go a little in depth on the 150% vs full time determination? I am in Rice County if that helps. If you look back at his work history (even the 2 years the county pulled) he was making between 15 and 16 dollars an hour plus a part time job (he's been doing that for about 3 years prior to us splitting up) Now, if you look at his current job (which he currently has) if you do the math on hours worked vs. what he was paid he's making 13.10 an hour. Do you think I have a good case at getting it set at the 150% of minimum wage (10.88 an hour) or at least taking away this reserve stuff?

Thank you for your help, by the way. I appreciate it a lot. Not many of us have been here before and it's nice to hear from someone who actually works within the system and can help us understand!

Start by ignoring any second job. No county is going to go after every dime an ncp earns after a FT 40 hour a week job. They will base support first on that, and typically disregard overtime and add'l jobs. If an NCP wants to try and earn a bit more to live on once his obligation is paid, CSED isn't going to hound him/her for it.

Next: Just by looking at the work history wages you posted, I can see why Rice is using his actual numbers (I would in my county). While $15/$16 an hours is decent money, it's not going to win the child support lotto. There are too many other variables. For example: Why is he no longer working the higher earning job? Was he laid off, downsized? Did he quit? If so, why? What is the local job market like now? Please, don't answer these questions to me--I'm not your worker and I'm not going to try and suss out the exact thought processes of the involved caseworker. Yes, your caseworker will look at the work history, but he or she will also look at what is the actual situation now? And what is the likelihood that the ncp would be able to pay the full oblig if an order was requested at the higher amount? What is the most right thing to do? That is why they are called child support guidelines. There are no hard and fast rules for setting obligations, Magistrate and judges have the power and authority to deviate from guidelines as they see fit.

Also, something else to keep in mind: Child support is fluid--meant to change as the circumstances of the case change. You get a significantly higher paying job? Support should be reviewed. The other party get a significantly higher paying job? Support should be reviewed. Child turns 18 and graduates? Review. [God forbid, but it happens] a child passes away? Review. Child develops a chronic medical condition requiring expensive out of pocket treatments? Review.

 

[ajs09876]

Start by ignoring any second job. No county is going to go after every dime an ncp earns after a FT 40 hour a week job. They will base support first on that, and typically disregard overtime and add'l jobs. If an NCP wants to try and earn a bit more to live on once his obligation is paid, CSED isn't going to hound him/her for it.

Next: Just by looking at the work history wages you posted, I can see why Rice is using his actual numbers (I would in my county). While $15/$16 an hours is decent money, it's not going to win the child support lotto. There are too many other variables. For example: Why is he no longer working the higher earning job? Was he laid off, downsized? Did he quit? If so, why? What is the local job market like now? Please, don't answer these questions to me--I'm not your worker and I'm not going to try and suss out the exact thought processes of the involved caseworker. Yes, your caseworker will look at the work history, but he or she will also look at what is the actual situation now? And what is the likelihood that the ncp would be able to pay the full oblig if an order was requested at the higher amount? What is the most right thing to do? That is why they are called child support guidelines. There are no hard and fast rules for setting obligations, Magistrate and judges have the power and authority to deviate from guidelines as they see fit.

Also, something else to keep in mind: Child support is fluid--meant to change as the circumstances of the case change. You get a significantly higher paying job? Support should be reviewed. The other party get a significantly higher paying job? Support should be reviewed. Child turns 18 and graduates? Review. [God forbid, but it happens] a child passes away? Review. Child develops a chronic medical condition requiring expensive out of pocket treatments? Review.

Thank you very much for in depth info. I really do appreciate it. Please don't see my asking questions as a disagreement with your advice, just as me trying to understand. While I agree that the amount is not going to win the "child support lotto" I have to say that using his last years numbers puts him making exactly half of what he actually makes. It's also what puts him in the reserve. All I want is for him to either A. show how much he's actually making so that the child support numbers are fair or B. At least have to pay some amount of child support because he's not technically eligible to use the self support reserve. I don't care which one. I'd even agree to the amount of child support being based on his last years numbers as long as it wasn't reserved because he does indeed have the ability to pay. He may not want to, but he has the ability.

I guess the thought of the reserve is what irks me the most. Just because he chose to work for cash for the last year, not report his current income, not file taxes for the last four years etc. He essentially gets to tell me financial responsibility of our children, "not his problem" I don't make a lot of money. Less than him, actually. I don't get a "reserve". I don't get to tell my landlord, my gas company, my daycare that paying them will put me below the self support reserve so I'm just not going to pay it. Sorry kids, you can't eat today. That'll put me under the guidelines. It's frustrating and I just want it to be close to fair. That's all. I'm not looking to screw him or looking to win the "child support lotto". I just want him to have some sort of financial responsibility to our kids. Not have everything reserved so he can feel justified not paying for our kids.

I guess when I came here, all I was looking for was a form. Not to be questioned on my motives. I'm sure you all have seen lots of people come through here thinking they won the lottery with their child support. I assure you that is not me. I am also sure you all have helped thousands of dads who's child support is actually too high and they literally can't pay it. I assure you that is not him.

Thanks again to everyone for your help. Thanks again to everyone who gave me links and tried to help me find the form. I think I'm going to use a form that they have and change the format so it fits the response I need to send. CSO is right that I should follow the advice of the attorney I talked to. However, when the attorney tells me to file a specific form, gives me the website for that form and It's not there, that's when I turned to you all for help.

I really do appreciate they attempts to help. I'll let you all know how it goes after court.

 

[Zigner]

You can never "count" on child support. Sure, it'd be nice if the other party would always do the right thing, but if that were the case, wouldn't you still be with him?

 

[ajs09876]

You can never "count" on child support. Sure, it'd be nice if the other party would always do the right thing, but if that were the case, wouldn't you still be with him?

touché

I guess it doesn't hurt to try. Just want to be sure I do it right. Thank you.

 

[Silverplum]

Thank you very much for in depth info. I really do appreciate it. Please don't see my asking questions as a disagreement with your advice, just as me trying to understand. While I agree that the amount is not going to win the "child support lotto" I have to say that using his last years numbers puts him making exactly half of what he actually makes. It's also what puts him in the reserve. All I want is for him to either A. show how much he's actually making so that the child support numbers are fair or B. At least have to pay some amount of child support because he's not technically eligible to use the self support reserve. I don't care which one. I'd even agree to the amount of child support being based on his last years numbers as long as it wasn't reserved because he does indeed have the ability to pay. He may not want to, but he has the ability.

I guess the thought of the reserve is what irks me the most. Just because he chose to work for cash for the last year, not report his current income, not file taxes for the last four years etc. He essentially gets to tell me financial responsibility of our children, "not his problem" I don't make a lot of money. Less than him, actually. I don't get a "reserve". I don't get to tell my landlord, my gas company, my daycare that paying them will put me below the self support reserve so I'm just not going to pay it. Sorry kids, you can't eat today. That'll put me under the guidelines. It's frustrating and I just want it to be close to fair. That's all. I'm not looking to screw him or looking to win the "child support lotto". I just want him to have some sort of financial responsibility to our kids. Not have everything reserved so he can feel justified not paying for our kids.

I guess when I came here, all I was looking for was a form. Not to be questioned on my motives. I'm sure you all have seen lots of people come through here thinking they won the lottery with their child support. I assure you that is not me. I am also sure you all have helped thousands of dads who's child support is actually too high and they literally can't pay it. I assure you that is not him.

Thanks again to everyone for your help. Thanks again to everyone who gave me links and tried to help me find the form. I think I'm going to use a form that they have and change the format so it fits the response I need to send. CSO is right that I should follow the advice of the attorney I talked to. However, when the attorney tells me to file a specific form, gives me the website for that form and It's not there, that's when I turned to you all for help.

I really do appreciate they attempts to help. I'll let you all know how it goes after court.

There's something in there that reminds me of biting on tinfoil.