Illegal left turn with confusing signage - court hearing tomorrow - any advice?

[mully_k]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NY

Happened Back in feb 2012. On a two lane street and came to an intersection with a sign that said, "Left turn must turn left". It was a two lane road intersecting with a multilane divide road. The road had 3 lanes in each direction (with a divider).

The road I was one had a dotted white line from the middle of the road (dividing the left and right lane) that curved into the traffic - guiding someone on the left lane to make that turn. There were no arrows or anything else. My assumption was that both lanes could turn and cars ahead of me did just that. I was the last car to go through the intersection, and I followed the white dotted line with the line on my left into a left turn - thinking this was perfectly legal.

A cop was waiting for me and pulled me over. Said what I did was dangerous and there had been many accidents. I told him that it wasn't clear and he said tell it to the judge they will probably let it off.

My question is - why would they make the intersection so confusing? What's up with that white dotted line? And if there had been all these accidents, why not put better signage up? At least paint an arrow in the right lane that points accross the intersection. Finally, it seemed like a perfectly safe turn to me. How this might cause an accident is inexplicable - it was a protected left and I checked the other side of the intersection and there was no right turn allowed.

Seems to me that this cop was taking advantage of a confusing interesection. And nearly 2 years later, nothing in this intersection has changed and I see so many cars make the same mistake I did.

Any tips on what I can say to the judge tomorrow morning?

 

[Zigner]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NY

Happened Back in feb 2012. On a two lane street and came to an intersection with a sign that said, "Left turn must turn left". It was a two lane road intersecting with a multilane divide road. The road had 3 lanes in each direction (with a divider).

The road I was one had a dotted white line from the middle of the road (dividing the left and right lane) that curved into the traffic - guiding someone on the left lane to make that turn. There were no arrows or anything else. My assumption was that both lanes could turn and cars ahead of me did just that. I was the last car to go through the intersection, and I followed the white dotted line with the line on my left into a left turn - thinking this was perfectly legal.

A cop was waiting for me and pulled me over. Said what I did was dangerous and there had been many accidents. I told him that it wasn't clear and he said tell it to the judge they will probably let it off.

My question is - why would they make the intersection so confusing? What's up with that white dotted line? And if there had been all these accidents, why not put better signage up? At least paint an arrow in the right lane that points accross the intersection. Finally, it seemed like a perfectly safe turn to me. How this might cause an accident is inexplicable - it was a protected left and I checked the other side of the intersection and there was no right turn allowed.

Seems to me that this cop was taking advantage of a confusing interesection. And nearly 2 years later, nothing in this intersection has changed and I see so many cars make the same mistake I did.

Any tips on what I can say to the judge tomorrow morning?

You waited until 3 working-hours before your case starts to seek help?

What is the intersection? I'd like to look at it on Google.

 

[FlyingRon]

The lane line extension (dotted line) does NOT imply that multiple lanes can turn there. It's there to just provide a guidance for those in the adjacent lane. They are used sometimes to guide SINGLE turn lanes through intersections so that drivers turning left are separated from drivers coming from the opposite direction also turning left. The law is pretty simple (NY VAT 1160). Absent signage to the contrary, you must make left turns from the left lane.

The admins of this forum don't allow images but the situation appears to be the top one in this picture from the MUTCD http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig3b_13_2_sm.gif

 

[HighwayMan]

You didn't say which lane you were in. I am assuming you were in the right lane.

One cannot ever make a left turn from the right lane unless it is specifically permitted by a posted sign or pavement markings (no, a dotted line is not it).

Basically you do not have a leg to stand on.

As was already pointed out, it's not very bright to wait until the last minute to ask a question like yours.

 

[HighwayMan]

My question is - why would they make the intersection so confusing?

Doesn't sound confusing to me.

What's up with that white dotted line?

I guess you don't drive much. I see these at many intersections.

why not put better signage up? At least paint an arrow in the right lane that points accross the intersection.

There is signage. You want a sign that says "no left turns from the right lane"? That's silly because that behavior is the norm.

Finally, it seemed like a perfectly safe turn to me.

That's totally irrelevant. It's illegal - period.


What court is adjudicating this case?

 

[Ohiogal]

Why did it take almost two years to bring to court?

 

[mully_k]

Why did it take almost two years to bring to court?

they kept delaying it

 

[mully_k]

You waited until 3 working-hours before your case starts to seek help?

What is the intersection? I'd like to look at it on Google.

christie and delancey. it's being held at 2 washington st in manhattan.

Well, people can tell me I am not very bright - but I have driven for 25 years without ever getting a moving violation. I was genuinely confused by the signage and white line - and apparently so are TONS of other people.

But if I dont have a case, then what should I do? Telling me I'm not bright doesn't really serve to help me very much. Anyone have anything constructive to say?

 

[HighwayMan]

But if I dont have a case, then what should I do?

That's up to you. Chances are whoever wrote the ticket is very experienced, so you don't have a good shot at winning.

There is no court at 2 Washington Street. You mean 19 Rector Street?

Your only chance is to hire an attorney, but even then your chances are not good.

Just because many people do the same thing doesn't make it right or indicative of good driving. That excuse will absolutely get you nowhere in court.

 

[HighwayMan]

Oh, and before it comes up again, this is TVB so there is no plea bargaining.

 

[mully_k]

That's up to you. Chances are whoever wrote the ticket is very experienced, so you don't have a good shot at winning.

There is no court at 2 Washington Street. You mean 19 Rector Street?

Your only chance is to hire an attorney, but even then your chances are not good.

Just because many people do the same thing doesn't make it right or indicative of good driving. That excuse will absolutely get you nowhere in court.

It's 2 Washington, that's the address on the form and online.

Here's my planned defense - it's confusing area. You can't really see the road surface. The fact is, I video taped the intersection and in 10 minutes a dozen cars did what I did. So either everyone is a crook, or obviously a lot of people get confused.

If it is dangerous that all these cars are doing this - it doesn't make it right, but it certainly does say that how can the city let this go on for 2 years? If this is dangerous isn't it insane that the city isn't putting up better signage for drivers to make sure they understand? I mean, how hard is it to paint a freaking straight arrow on the road so people know? Fact is it's confusing. And if I am an "idiot" then clearly so are a ton of other drivers.

Seems odd that this being such a frequent issue with so many violations - that nothing has been done in 2 years to fix this. My case is that the intersection is confusing and people are still doing this, and the city doesn't seem to want to try to prevent it from happening. Maybe they should put up better signage and fix the problem in a way that prevents obvious violations from happening.

I mean, if I can't plea bargin, what else am I going to do?

 

[FlyingRon]

The fact that others do it is NOT a defense for you.
The fact that it took two years to try doesn't mean the situation wasn't dangerous. They wrote you when it occurred.

You may have been able to motion for dismissal if the people weren't ready to try, but if they're ready on this date, trial will proceed.

 

[Ohiogal]

The fact that others do it is NOT a defense for you.
The fact that it took two years to try doesn't mean the situation wasn't dangerous. They wrote you when it occurred.

You may have been able to motion for dismissal if the people weren't ready to try, but if they're ready on this date, trial will proceed.

I would argue violation of speedy trial right if she was not the one asking for a continuance all this time. It might not work but it might.

 

[FlyingRon]

I would argue violation of speedy trial right if she was not the one asking for a continuance all this time. It might not work but it might.

You could try arguing it, but in NY the way it works is you make a motion that you are ready to go to trial and if the people aren't ready, the motion is granted (it's a SHALL word in the statute). However, it looks like the people will be ready on this next date. But I suggest that if they attempt to move it again he make such motion.

 

[HighwayMan]

I would argue violation of speedy trial right if she was not the one asking for a continuance all this time. It might not work but it might.

Speedy trial issues don't apply in NY traffic cases. I have a case law reference SOMEWHERE but have no time to look now.

In addition, this is an administrative hearing and it's not a "court".

It's a bit unusual for cases in TVB to take so long to be heard. However, if the officer is a "heavy hitter" (as I suspect he is) then his calendar is full and any adjournment for any reason would be at least six months out.