Illegal left turn with confusing signage - court hearing tomorrow - any advice?

[Ohiogal]

You could try arguing it, but in NY the way it works is you make a motion that you are ready to go to trial and if the people aren't ready, the motion is granted (it's a SHALL word in the statute). However, it looks like the people will be ready on this next date. But I suggest that if they attempt to move it again he make such motion.

How does NY get around the fact that the right to a speedy trial is a constitutional right and there are time limits prescribed in which to go to trial on criminal issues... of which traffic is a criminal not civil matter.

 

[HighwayMan]

Of course, the upside to the delay is that the license points will never appear on the motorist's record since more than 18 months has already elapsed since the date of violation.

 

[FlyingRon]

How does NY get around the fact that the right to a speedy trial is a constitutional right and there are time limits prescribed in which to go to trial on criminal issues... of which traffic is a criminal not civil matter.

The same way it works in many of the states. This is not uncommon. You have to demand your trial before you can protest not getting it. You don't get many of your rights unless you specifically ask for them. Tons of supreme court decisions on that. Barker vs. Wingo is pretty much the yardstick on Sixth Amendment issues.

 

[You Are Guilty]

For those not familiar with the area, perhaps I can shed a little light. This is a really horrible intersection which is timed in favor of Delancy (which leads to one of the free bridges out of Manhattan about 6 blocks away so it's always a mess). It is also one of the few on this street so close to the bridge that are not routinely manned by Traffic Agents (the blocks to the east and west of this intersection are). As a result, you get a ton of people who want to make this turn, thus the "dotted line" was painted to help idiots not run into each other.

But what happens is the line to turn left from Chrystie ends up going back for blocks and blocks and blocks (and even longer during rush hour) because only a handful of cars can make the turn before the light changes.

So, and I am not accusing the OP of this, you get a solid number of a-holes who think they don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else and zoom up the right lane and jump in in front of the cars patiently waiting in the left lane to turn left.

And since a photo is worth like, 14 words or something, you can see the non-rush hour line of cars here: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=chrystie+st+and+delancey+st+ny&hl=en&ll=40.720195,-73.992791&spn=0.001789,0.004128&sll=40.719969,-73.992907&sspn=0.001797,0.004128&gl=us&hnear=Delancey+St+&+Chrystie+St,+New+York,+10002&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.720094,-73.992843&panoid=TPt1gqdYzMs5UggF076Ivg&cbp=13,4.66,,0,5.56

And if you spin 180 from that view, you can also see this horribly "confusing" intersection.

 

[Zigner]

For those not familiar with the area, perhaps I can shed a little light. This is a really horrible intersection which is timed in favor of Delancy (which leads to one of the free bridges out of Manhattan about 6 blocks away so it's always a mess). It is also one of the few on this street so close to the bridge that are not routinely manned by Traffic Agents (the blocks to the east and west of this intersection are). As a result, you get a ton of people who want to make this turn, thus the "dotted line" was painted to help idiots not run into each other.

But what happens is the line to turn left from Chrystie ends up going back for blocks and blocks and blocks (and even longer during rush hour) because only a handful of cars can make the turn before the light changes.

So, and I am not accusing the OP of this, you get a solid number of a-holes who think they don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else and zoom up the right lane and jump in in front of the cars patiently waiting in the left lane to turn left.

And since a photo is worth like, 14 words or something, you can see the non-rush hour line of cars here: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=chrystie+st+and+delancey+st+ny&hl=en&ll=40.720195,-73.992791&spn=0.001789,0.004128&sll=40.719969,-73.992907&sspn=0.001797,0.004128&gl=us&hnear=Delancey+St+&+Chrystie+St,+New+York,+10002&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=40.720094,-73.992843&panoid=TPt1gqdYzMs5UggF076Ivg&cbp=13,4.66,,0,5.56

And if you spin 180 from that view, you can also see this horribly "confusing" intersection.

Thanks, and now that you have posted this, it actually shows that the lines on the ground make this LESS confusing.

 

[HighwayMan]

How does NY get around the fact that the right to a speedy trial is a constitutional right and there are time limits prescribed in which to go to trial on criminal issues... of which traffic is a criminal not civil matter.

I'll dig out my "Prosecuting Traffic Cases in New York" course book hopefully tomorrow morning(oops I mean THIS morning) and look it up and let you know.

In this case especially, it is NOT a criminal matter. It is strictly civil - an administrative hearing. Administrative Law Judges in the TVB can only impose fines and license suspensions - no jail time even though up to 15 days in jail is a valid penalty for a traffic infraction.

 

[HighwayMan]

So, and I am not accusing the OP of this, you get a solid number of a-holes who think they don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else and zoom up the right lane and jump in in front of the cars patiently waiting in the left lane to turn left.

Now that I'm thinking about it I remember listening to a lot of testimony in hearings leading from summonses issued here.

I believe the NYPD Manhattan Traffic Task Force pays some attention to this intersection and writes a fair number of "confused" motorists doing the same thing the OP did.

 

[HighwayMan]

There is no court at 2 Washington Street. You mean 19 Rector Street?

For the record, the Manhattan South TVB WAS moved effective 11/12/13 to 2 Washington. I guess the rent at 19 Rector was too damn high.

 

[HighwayMan]

How does NY get around the fact that the right to a speedy trial is a constitutional right and there are time limits prescribed in which to go to trial on criminal issues... of which traffic is a criminal not civil matter.

New York courts have distinguished between a violation and a traffic infraction. These two types of offenses are very often lumped together but that should not be the case.

As such, each of the cases cited below have held that CPL (NY Criminal Procedure Law) 30.30 is INAPPLICABLE to traffic infractions (specifically 30.30 1d) and the issue of timeliness of prosecution should never bar a prosecution for traffic infractions.

People v Zagorsky 73 Misc2d 420 County Court: Broom County 1973
People v Solomon 124 Misc2d 33 First District Nassau County 1984
People v Wise 141 Misc2d 409 District Court NYC First District 1988
People v Michalek 138 Misc2d 1 Criminal Court NYC 1987
People v Blake 154 Misc2d 660 Criminal Court Kings County 1992
People v Gonzalez 168 Misc2d 136 Appellate Term First Dept 1996
People v Gonzalez 88 NY2d 936 Court of Appeals 1996

 

[You Are Guilty]

Now that I'm thinking about it I remember listening to a lot of testimony in hearings leading from summonses issued here.

I believe the NYPD Manhattan Traffic Task Force pays some attention to this intersection and writes a fair number of "confused" motorists doing the same thing the OP did.

To be honest, I was totally accusing the OP of doing this.

I'm glad to see some attention is being paid to that intersection though. All the right-lane turners there (and even on Bowery!), is getting ridiculous.

 

[HighwayMan]

To be honest, I was totally accusing the OP of doing this.

I'm glad to see some attention is being paid to that intersection though. All the right-lane turners there (and even on Bowery!), is getting ridiculous.

I haven't been to Manhattan South in a few years, but I do remember that some of the regular MTTF cops would be at this location regularly writing people making that turn.

 

[Alex23]

I looked at the photo and it sounds to me like the OP turned and crossed the dotted line from the cars turning opposite. That doesn't sound safe or confusing.