Are these Crimes or Self Defense in Classroom?

[HiFi]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

I realize that the odds of someone invading a college classroom with a gun are slim however I'd like to know if in these 4 scenarios which I may advice my nephew on, are legally OK and or won't get him sued. I am assuming that anyone who invades a classroom with firearms intends to use them and in fact will use them.

First 2 Scenarios Man enters Classroom with weapons, threatens to use them but before he does:

1. My nephew shoots him first with a legally registered gun which he's allowed to carry and in the process the gunman kills and wounds people but alot of people escape. No one other than the gunman is shot by your gun.

2. Before the gunman uses a weapon, my nephew lights up and throws several legal smoke bombs and in the process, the gunman kills and wounds some people but alot of people escape.

Last 2 Scenarios Gunman Fires his gun first:

3. My nephew then shoots him with a legally registered gun which he's allowed to carry and in the process the gunman kills and wounds people but alot of people escape. No one other than the gunman is shot by your gun.

4. My nephew then lights up and throws several legal smoke bombs and in the process, the gunman kills and wounds some people but alot of people escape.

Basically, has my nephew broken any laws in any of these scenarios and whether he has or hasn't, is he likely to be sued and lose from any of the injured or (parents of) dead parties?

 

[Indiana Filer]

Hifi,

We don't do hypotheticals here.

 

[CdwJava]

I realize that the odds of someone invading a college classroom with a gun are slim however I'd like to know if in these 4 scenarios which I may advice my nephew on, are legally OK and or won't get him sued.

People can sue anyone for anything and have a chance of prevailing. The North Hollywood bank robbers' families sued the police when they were killed, too.

When there is a death or grave injury caused or believed to be caused by another, there will be a lawsuit.

I am assuming that anyone who invades a classroom with firearms intends to use them and in fact will use them.

You are free to make that assumption ... the court might not agree, but you can make it.

1. My nephew shoots him first with a legally registered gun which he's allowed to carry and in the process the gunman kills and wounds people but alot of people escape. No one other than the gunman is shot by your gun.

Uh ... what makes you think he can lawfully carry a firearm on campus in CA?

Nephew can also be charged with possession and unlawful discharge of a firearm but probably would not be charged given the hypothetical. However, there are many things that could come into play here that illustrate why we do not like to do hypotheticals at this site ... were the additional shootings because your nephew was pursuing the gunman? What if he was, himself, shot by responding police? What if others were to break the law as he did and decide to start shooting each other in the hallways?

There are a great deal of what-ifs here. But, assuming as you state that is somehow that simple, he'd probably not be charged in CA. However, the odds are that he will be found to be carrying a firearm at school (a felony) are far greater than his ever having need to use it to defend himself or others.

And, of course, your nephew will almost certainly be sued by the shooter's family and they may win because your nephew will have been in violation of several laws ... plus, they might point to other elements as well that could make him look bad.

2. Before the gunman uses a weapon, my nephew lights up and throws several legal smoke bombs and in the process, the gunman kills and wounds some people but alot of people escape.

No criminal liability is likely, but a lot of civil liability as the families of the dead and wounded sue your nephew for lighting the smoke that set the shooter off on a killing rampage.

3. My nephew then shoots him with a legally registered gun which he's allowed to carry and in the process the gunman kills and wounds people but alot of people escape. No one other than the gunman is shot by your gun.

4. My nephew then lights up and throws several legal smoke bombs and in the process, the gunman kills and wounds some people but alot of people escape.

Same as above, only the self defense argument becomes better as does the potential mitigation in a civil suit.

The problem with hypotheticals is that there is no fact set to work from. Everyone sort of makes them up or makes assumptions. Under the right set of circumstances your nephew would walk away free and clear. Under the wrong set of circumstances, he can be sent to prison. It really just depends on the details.

Basically, has my nephew broken any laws in any of these scenarios and whether he has or hasn't, is he likely to be sued and lose from any of the injured or (parents of) dead parties?

He is about as likely to be sued as the sun is to rise in the morning.

Remember Columbine? The cops and the school lost millions in lawsuits for something that was not even their fault, even though they adhered to the law and policy as it was at the time.

The best answer to give your nephew is NOT to bring a gun onto campus unless he wants to potentially have a felony on his record for the rest of his life.

NOTE: Indiana Flier, I know we don't tend to do hypotheticals here, but this one had some important issues that I just couldn't leave alone.

- Carl

 

[HomeGuru]

Sounds like homework to me.

 

[CdwJava]

Sounds like homework to me.

Which is why I didn't cite codes or case law.

- Carl

 

[HomeGuru]

Which is why I didn't cite codes or case law.

- Carl

**A: Yup, you don't do homework.

 

[quincy]

As a side note to the legalities of having weapons on a college campus:

Michigan State University's Board of Trustees just voted last week to allow those who have concealed weapon permits to carry their weapons on MSU's campus (but not into campus buildings or dormitories). All other colleges and universities in Michigan have an outright ban on weapons on their campuses.

As another side note:

Michigan State University has often been ranked high on the list of "party schools" in the country.

This seems like a horrible horrible mix to me.

 

[HiFi]

Again You Are the Only Ones Who Say Don't Ask Hypotheticals

Where does it Say on this Forum other than from you not to ask Hypotheticals? I have no problem with that and abiding by that if it is stated by whoever runs this Forum but it isn't, its just from you. You don't find that absurd? I do. What next are you going to ban Jews and Blacks from this forum?

That aside, I did pick up a good answer from this. Also I thought if you have a permit to carry a gun you can carry it anywhere even in a classroom.

 

[quincy]

First, there are lots of places you are not allowed to carry a properly licensed weapon. Try walking into a courthouse with one, or taking a tour of the White House with a weapon concealed in your coat pocket.

Second, we don't do hypotheticals because, as Carl said, hypotheticals have too many variables. To provide a legal answer you must have all of the facts of a particular situation and work from there.

We also do not do homework - at least intentionally.



(and, of course, the we-don't-do hypotheticals or homework only applies until one of the forum members finds the hypothetical or homework assignment interesting - or when they are bored and answer just for the heck of it )

P.S. - Could you please remove the one offensive sentence from your post, HiFi? Thanks.

 

[Antigone*]

Have you guys taken a look at HiFi's history??? It speaks for itself.

 

[CdwJava]

Where does it Say on this Forum other than from you not to ask Hypotheticals? I have no problem with that and abiding by that if it is stated by whoever runs this Forum but it isn't, its just from you. You don't find that absurd? I do. What next are you going to ban Jews and Blacks from this forum?

Oh, please ... those are not even similar comparisons.

As I mentioned, hypotheticals involve so much speculation and assumption that they inevitably lead to either convoluted answers, or followup questions that begin with "What if ..." ... these become very annoying, very quickly.

Also I thought if you have a permit to carry a gun you can carry it anywhere even in a classroom.

Not in California. There is no blanket exception for CCW holders on school campuses.

- Carl

 

[cyjeff]

Anyone else love the irony of acting insulted about not getting the answer in the way the OP wanted?

This is akin to saying, "Thanks for giving me CPR, but you really need a breath mint."

As the husband of a teacher and the father of students, I will just say this.

if more college students go armed onto campus and into class, the number of incidents will rise, not fall.

Armed conflict is, in many ways, a crime of opportunity.

I say this as a proud advocate of personal ownership of weapons by trained individuals.

Tell your nephew that the reason that there are so few heroes is that most of them get their fool head shot off trying to prove they are a hero.

The potential of innocents getting hurt goes up exponentially when TWO untrained gunman open fire.

 

[CdwJava]

The potential of innocents getting hurt goes up exponentially when TWO untrained gunman open fire.

Just look at most drive by shootings!

We laugh when we read stories of when the cops fire 30 shots and hit only 7 or 8 times, but when you have a big gang shooting, you might have twice as many shots with only a couple connecting ... and far too often on people that are not a target.


- Carl

 

[quincy]

Clarify please, Carl. These 30 shots, 7 or 8 hits that are so funny - I assume you are talking target practice here, right?

And I agree, Cyjeff. A campus is no place for guns.

 

[CdwJava]

Clarify please, Carl. These 30 shots, 7 or 8 hits that are so funny - I assume you are talking target practice here, right?

No ... just those frequent reports of police shootings where there are a lot of shots fired with a small number of hits. The numbers vary from 10 shots and no hits, to 40 shots and 8 hits, etc. Embarrassing, really ... but, understandable. And "funny" in that people make fun of it, not that the shootings are funny because usually it means someone is dead.

I, for one, am near perfect at the range. But, get me into a live shoot with bullets whizzing over my head as I return fire and dive for cover, and I imagine my near-perfect score would drop just a tad.


- Carl