Car Searched for Handing Money to Someone in Public

[CdwJava]

Buying such an object would not be sufficient to justify a search here, either. But we are not talking about the possession of a single object that is lawful to purchase, we are talking about a set of circumstances which give rise to reasonable belief of criminal activity, and may well rise to probable cause to believe that a crime had occurred and that evidence of the crime (sales or purchase of controlled substances) was present in the vehicle.

The court cases you cite are also not similar. "... furtive hand movements without seeing anything exchanged ..." and, "... two occupants of a car were engaged in some sort of conversation with an individual leaning against the vehicle ..." and, "he leaned into the second and third cars and conducted what appeared to be some sort of hand transactions." Certainly, absent some OTHER articulable factors, cause based just on any one of those actions alone is weak. We do not have these situations in the scenario as presented by the OP and as inferred by the presence of two or more vehicles assigned to intercept the involved parties. We have a confluence of events and actions not a single act that was suspicious. There was obviously much more to the articulation than simply, "I saw two people sit in the car, talk, and pass something between them."

Like I said, this was a textbook deal, and appears to have been a textbook observation as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the two suspects was an informant and is playing at being a suspect, or if someone one of them knew was the informant. Either this was a deal of some kind, or the cops got terribly lucky and it was random chance that they happened to be sipping coffee catching up on their logs when they made the observation...then got lucky by finding unlawful meds. That kind of fortune is rare.

 

[HappyWanderer]

It's funny the difference in response between CdwJava and Zinger. One is an adult who knows and one is a child who does not. Those who are reading can determine which.

I know, as I wrote, that Ohio law does not cover California. It's just that here we have a person come to a car, has a hand to hand exchange and there is nothing else. By my reading, that would not be probable cause to search in Ohio according to those who know the law there.

Is it different in California?

 

[Zigner]

It's funny the difference in response between CdwJava and Zinger. One is an adult who knows and one is a child who does not. Those who are reading can determine which.

I know, as I wrote, that Ohio law does not cover California. It's just that here we have a person come to a car, has a hand to hand exchange and there is nothing else. By my reading, that would not be probable cause to search in Ohio according to those who know the law there.

Is it different in California?

However, what you posted isn't even anything CLOSE to what has happened in THIS thread. Get it? Or, perhaps I should type slower?

 

[Zigner]

It's funny the difference in response between CdwJava and Zinger.

And...one other thing to remember - both response were perfectly accurate.

 

[HappyWanderer]

Methinks you doth protest too much.

One response addresses the legal issues. The other is just a child saying things.

 

[Isis1]

It's funny the difference in response between CdwJava and Zinger. One is an adult who knows and one is a child who does not. Those who are reading can determine which.

I know, as I wrote, that Ohio law does not cover California. It's just that here we have a person come to a car, has a hand to hand exchange and there is nothing else. By my reading, that would not be probable cause to search in Ohio according to those who know the law there.

Is it different in California?

YES!!!!!! we are a bit weird out here. i LOVE it!!

 

[Zigner]

Methinks you doth protest too much.

One response addresses the legal issues. The other is just a child saying things.

Wander on now...

 

[Joshuaace2]

Two questions in the original post.

Is handing money to someone in a public place, a valid probable cause to search a vehicle if she isn't on probation or parole?

No, it is not.

The tapes will show she didn't give her permission to search her car, is it possible her charges will be dismissed?

Possible, yes it is possible.



Given the circumstances in this case, I do not see pc, unless of course the 4th has been eroded so far as to be non-existent anymore.

A couple weeks ago I made arrangements to purchase tickets for a Jay-Z concert from a seller on Craigslist. We met at the outer edges of a parking lot at the mall. He got in my car, handed me an envelope with four tix, I inspected them and gave him the $. Was this pc for either of us to be searched? I think not.


Last week my adult (term used loosely) son called my cell as I was on my way to work. His car had broke down and he did noy have the $ for a tow. He had managed to push his car into the lot of a grocery store. I pulled up and handed him $100 out the window. Was this pc to search either of us? Hardly.


Both of these situations were somewhat similar to the original post. Both were also entirely innocent.


I'm not saying that there isn't more to the story. I am saying with what we have, there is no pc.

 

[Zigner]

Two questions in the original post.






No, it is not.





Possible, yes it is possible.



Given the circumstances in this case, I do not see pc, unless of course the 4th has been eroded so far as to be non-existent anymore.

A couple weeks ago I made arrangements to purchase tickets for a Jay-Z concert from a seller on Craigslist. We met at the outer edges of a parking lot at the mall. He got in my car, handed me an envelope with four tix, I inspected them and gave him the $. Was this pc for either of us to be searched? I think not.


Last week my adult (term used loosely) son called my cell as I was on my way to work. His car had broke down and he did noy have the $ for a tow. He had managed to push his car into the lot of a grocery store. I pulled up and handed him $100 out the window. Was this pc to search either of us? Hardly.


Both of these situations were somewhat similar to the original post. Both were also entirely innocent.


I'm not saying that there isn't more to the story. I am saying with what we have, there is no pc.

As opposed to the California Police Officer who has shown that PC IS present

 

[CdwJava]

To be clear, I can make an argument that PC IS present. Without knowing what the officers actually saw or no, I cannot be certain. But, when looking at the entire picture, it is clear there is more to this than meets the eye.

 

[PegyIlean]

Additional info to original post

Thank you so much to each one of you for your posts!

I always say either too much or not enough! What I left out in the original post:

My friend was shopping at the .99 store for items for her son who was returning back to Arizona that night. She dropped him off at his Grandmother's {former mother-in-law} house for a visit before he returned to Arizona. That money was for her son {18 yrs.} as he is just starting out with his first apt., etc.

Knowing my friend and her complete inability to tell time, if given the choice of waiting her arrival or going to meet her, I would {& have} chosen to go to her. Numerous times her & I have met in public places, primarily when she's shopping, for her to give me money. Once to pick up money for auto parts when my boyfriend was fixing her car. Many times when she had her RV & needed someone to go pay for additional days because she wouldn't make it in time.

I have another friend who we often meet in public to loan each other money. She lives 2O miles away but works about 1O miles {in the opposite direction away from her home} from where I live. Since she has a commute during traffic hour & has to get home to feed her son, our favored hand off location is the IKEA parking lot off the freeway & half way for both. One or the other getting into the others car.

Of course the thought has crossed our minds how it looks, but since we aren't doing anything wrong, we've never been concerned.

After I posted, I obtained the name of her friend & performed a search at the courts web site. I suspected a set-up situation when she first told me her story and reading his record, I'll bet the $1OO. it was set-up.

Numerous drug charges from possession of a controlled substance to under the influence of a controlled substance.

Knowing her propensity for parking lot meetings, it would be easy to make it look like a drug transaction for police. My friend says she had no idea of his history & I'm inclined to believe her due to her reaction when she learned of it. She also said the pills in her purse had been there for quite awhile when someone "gave them to her when she had a toothache".

Thank you again for taking the time to respond! Sorry if there are any areas I didn't address, but I got so excited when I read the responses & wanted to fill in the blanks. The different perspectives were wonderful! I've always been amazed the time all of you take to respond to peoples posts. It's scary for people when they don't know what to expect and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge, opinions, advice & learning the different perspectives!

If anything unusual or unexpected {from the norm} occurs I'll post the outcome.

P.S. Cdw Java, I was hooked reading the criminal board a few years back at another site where you used to post. I always valued your opinion from a cops perspective.

 

[Joshuaace2]

As opposed to the California Police Officer who has shown that PC IS present

Did you read that somewhere in this thread? Or, are you just making the assumption the policeman is always right?

Op's question was: "Is handing money to someone in a public place, a valid probable cause to search a vehicle if she isn't on probation or parole?"

The answer is an emphatic NO.

 

[PegyIlean]

About 8 years ago in Orange, CA., I went to a teammates house after soccer practice to change clothes and visit for a bit. He walked with me to my car when I was leaving & was leaning in/on the passenger window saying goodbye, while I was picking up trash in my car & placing it in a brown bag which he held out his hand to throw away for me. Looking out the window was a neighbor who suspected a drug transaction & called the police.

I drove away & he walked over to the dumpster & tossed in the brown bag. He decided to walk to the store and got about 1\4 mile before the cops stopped him by using the P.A. system. They told him to put his hands in the air & walk towards the car & spread eagle. As they were getting out of their car they had their hands on the guns!

They searched him and asked questions about me. They let him go on his way about an hour later.

How many people go into a house, come out & then conduct a drug transaction, throw the drugs in the dumpster & walk away? If the neighbor saw the trash transaction she would be able to have seen all the rest. That's Orange County for you. Or maybe its because he was black in a very white neighborhood?

Like Joshuaace2's story I was the seller of 2 concert tickets through craigslist.com. The buyers chose Hooters for a meeting spot. When I arrived I stood next to my car so they could find me easier. They pulled up & I walked to their truck & we exchanged tickets & money. I was just waiting to get pulled over for that one. Even commenting to the buyer that someone will probably call the cops saying there are drug sales going on in the parking lot. I remember feeling relieved when I made it out of the parking lot without getting stopped! I hate feeling like that for no reason.

 

[justalayman]

As opposed to the California Police Officer who has shown that PC IS present

sorry zig, the officer does not determine if PC was actually present. They make their decision whether they believe it is or not. The courts are the entity that will make the actual determination.

 

[HappyWanderer]

What an officer believes is not the law. Unless we have a specific case with legally indistinguishable facts in an appellate level or higher in California, in the 9th circuit appellate level or in the Supreme Court, we don't KNOW the law.

Zinger keeps telling me to wander off (So, clever!), but doesn't seem to know the above even though he has senior member status. I can certainly be disagreeable and have certainly questioned senior members on their opinion, but why do people like CdwJava and Justalayman (some others too) understand legitimate disagreement can be had with some level of decorum and information while the Zinger's of the list come up with callow insults and unsupported claims?

I wrote I knew my cases were not the LAW in CA. But, I've got to assume the cops there see pretty much the same things as those in California and have similar training. When the courts there say that merely seeing a hand to hand transfer of a person who comes up to a car and then leaves IS NOT probable cause, that seems persuasive to me. I would think one would need to either say why this is different (As CdwJava says, there must be more.) or why California law is different from Ohio's in order to come up with a different conclusion.

COULD a cop write up his report to show more? Probably. Throw in a few more furtive motions and glimpse of a baggie or a pine tree air freshener along with a loud Grateful Dead riff emitting from the car and maybe it could come up to probable cause. But I think we'll all agree that just because the cops found drugs does not make the search legal.