Failure to honor warranty

[justalayman]

run4bear;3014505]If I could attach a document here, I would. I have a PDF from Tiedown engineering where they specifically state that the "do not recommend triple torsion axles". I had three 7000# torsion axles, but it is evident now that any application of tri-axle torsion axles will result in the problems I am having. 8000# axles are doing no better.

that's odd considering what I posted was from Tiedown as well. I did a bit of research and found what might be what you are referring to which does state to not use torsion axles in a triple axle set up.

FAQ's - Atlanta, Georgia - Tie Down Engineering

Dexter also has a new type of Axle called a Flex-Ride that is similar to what is used on semi-trailers. I have done a lot of research. Again, a big expense.

can't find anything on that. I did find their Airflex system which simply appears to be a torflex with an added air bag (in the most basic terms anyway). To me, that appears to be an attempt to simply upsize the capacity of the torflex unit without upsizing the actual torflex components. Not sure I like the design though. It seems as it will not actually remedy the problems seen here.

I have towed torsion axles trailers almost since their inception, but in a dual axle application and NEVER had a problem. You are looking at hundreds of thousands of miles. There is no doubt in my mind and I think I have enough evidence to directly relate my problems to the tri-axle application.

while I can see your point, I believe it is not due to the 3 axle use itself but a lack of properly sizing of the axle that results in overloaded axles more often. There are some very large trucks out there that use totally independent 3 axle systems that do not have this sort of problem because their axles are rated properly for the use. If you look at a semi or large capacity truck that uses triple axles with air bag suspension, you will find plenty with no equalizer system used. That results in the same loading of the axle problems that is causing your issues yet they do not have the loading issue problems. I do not believe it is something inherent to a torsion bar suspension but a poorly engineered system using under rated components due to a lack of understanding and including the loading issues in the design. As you have stated, there are manufacturers with improved torsion suspension and other types where triple axle set-ups are just fine. The loading problem inherent to a non-equalized suspension doesn't simply go away because you change the actual type of suspension or the capacity of the axles. It will always be there. Maybe they cannot make a torsion suspension able to carry the same load as an air bag suspension (I did see a 10k rated Dexter torflex though)

They simply said 3 7000# axles mean a 21,000 load rating. I have always been under that and based my purchase on that rating knowing my load.

wow. Even when designing a tandem axle the load divided by half is not how you get the resulting necessary rating of the axles.

Since I have yet to find anyone else who has had this problem, my guess is that since this trailer was made under the assumption that the "average buyer" was only going to use it occasionally and they had no problems in the past, most people did not use their trailer full-time as I do and hence did not have the problem - or at least not to the degree that I have.

do some internet research. While I did find some happy results, I do recall reading of those with problems as well.

So in addressing the trailer manufacturer the options for resolution are:

1) reimbursement for damages and replacement with axles that will work (if even possible)
2) a different trailer (which I am not sure they make one that will address my needs)
3) they buy back my trailer (I also added about $20,000 in accessories: solar panels, charging system, satellite dish, generator for which I would no longer have any use.)

I believe #3 is about the only feasible remedy BUT the accessories will be a problem. Most likely you will not be compensated for them and told to either install them on your next trailer or sell them to recoup what you can. I do not recall how you came about paying to install the larger axles you now have. Was it simply due to your attempt at a remedy or was it at the suggestion of the manufacturer? If the latter, I would think those costs should be able to be recouped. If your idea, it makes it harder to claim the manufacturer is liable. I believe it will depend on why you did what you did and if you are able to lay the attempt on the manufacturer for some reason.



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I have a buyer for my business who would want to continue what I am doing (on a smaller scale) but I cannot legally or with a clear conscience sell them this trailer with the business without disclosing the problems. My reputation (and that of my business (32 years now) would be at stake as well as the liability for damages they would incur.)

no problem selling the business but the trailer is a complete no no given the problems you have and are aware of but that you already know.

the one thing I did see in running around looking at internet sites for this issue that may be a problem: You use your unit for a commercial application. Some manufacturers have very different warranties on commercial use of their products which may strongly affect your avenues for recourse.

 

[Zigner]

I think something is being glossed over here. The FACT that the OP has modified the trailer. The OP has now become the "designer" of the trailer because the OP CHOSE the current set of axles.

 

[run4bear]

I stand corrected. Dexter's new (about 3 years old) Airflex is what I was referring to. I, too, am not convinced they would work.

It is just from this conversation I see that just because the axles were rated at 21,000# does not mean they will carry them well. Yet, the trailer manufacturer (at least their service manager and plant manufacturer) KNEW what I was using the trailer for, do did the dealer (the original one is out of the picture, he went out of business in the last year). I have been to the manufacturing facility (in fact two of them) many times. They have seen my setup. I have also seen other trailer owners for repairs, additions, etc. and many of them use their trailers in a commercial application. This is what is considered a car hauler (like for race car people) and I got it so I could put my Jeep in it. I knew my load before I bought the trailer and it was well under the 21,000# weight rating. Being commercial should not be an issue. Plus, I live in this FULL-TIME. I sold my farm in 2005 with the plan to do what I am doing and find a place to buy in 2-4 years. It has been 7 now.

I also had an accident with the first trailer in April 2008. It did not involve anyone else and there was no police report. The insurance company called it a total (axle and frame damage) and replaced it. Long battle, but I had to BUY the "totaled" trailer in order to "own" the extras I had installed. So I took off my extras, put them on the new trailer and sold the rest for scrap. It is long gone, so there is no way to prove anything. This could possibly have been caused by the axles. Too late now.

The company that made this trailer is Forest River. They are a big company and I do think they should have known about the potential problems. But I am still disturbed that the axle company gave no warning, replaced my first set of axles saying they were defective and then denied my claim on the second set. They did OFFER me new 7000# axles without cost, I merely declined since I concluded two failures were enough and I was convinced they over-rated their axles. Which, as I now see, is true - at least in a tri-axle application. And, upon inspection of the failure of the 2dn set of axles, they determined the arms were bent and instead ere defective, they concluded that I had overloaded them. Weight slips say I have not, but that is while I am not in motion which is where they get overloaded. As far as my being a "modifier" of the trailer: the trailer company APPROVED the use of the 8000# replacement axles. I certainly did consult with them before buying them.

Unfortunately, this trailer will only accommodate 8000# axles at best. It does not have the frame or depth of wheel well to accommodate anything larger.

Since I have been fighting this a couple of years, I have done research and found no one with the same problem. I did, however, get a response from an attorney that does Class Action suits and when Im posed this statement to him, he said there are ways to find other who have had this problem. I am assuming they would be able to get the sales records of this typo of trailer and contact previous buyers.

I can sell or reuse most of the additions, and probably get enough back (minus age and normal use).

Ideally they buy back the trailer and the purchaser of my business can find their own trailer and truck. I am selling the manufacturing portion as well as the Internet and reputation (which I developed a good deal by my traveling to competitions). My towing truck is an older Freightliner (but in great shape, hard to find anymore with the features it has) and very salable.

My deal with the sale of the business, however, was for the changeover to be gradual (a year or two) during which time I would continue to travel, promote the business and serve the market I have been serving until the buyer is up to speed and able to handle it all competently and productively.

That poses a problem with my continued use of the trailer. Considering the trailer is now 4 years old could I expect to get back the purchase price? They may want to depreciate it, but I argue the cost of continual repairs.

Refund of the full purchase price? I bought from dealers who obviously made a profit from the sale. Would I also be compensated for all of the damages that were a DIRECT result of the axles? (tires, wheels, bearings, etc.)

 

[run4bear]

Correction to this statement:
"They did OFFER me new 7000# axles without cost, I merely declined since I concluded two failures were enough and I was convinced they over-rated their axles."

I meant to say they offered me new 7000#, but if upon inspection they were not deemed defective, they would not compensate me: i.e. pay me back for the axles. I declined and instead bought the 8000# axles. I did return the 2nd set of failed axles (at my expense) and the axle company again said the arms were bent, but because I overloaded them (not true) not because they were defective.

 

[justalayman]

It is just from this conversation I see that just because the axles were rated at 21,000# does not mean they will carry them well.

but they weren't rated at 21k#. They were each rated at 7k#. As you have learned, it is not simply an additive calculation but especially due to the lack of load sharing, your trailer is more closely rated at 7k# than 21k#.

Being commercial should not be an issue.

if they make it an issue, it could be an issue. Regardless of how things took place, if it is provable by their documents that you did not state this was intended for commercial use, they can argue you used it beyond its designed use and as such, all your problems are your problems. They design trailers for personal use with the intent there will be limited use of the unit. A commercial unit is designed for much more use than a personal use unit. Using a personal use unit for commercial purposes most definitely is considered use outside of the designed use and as such, arguably no longer warranted in any fashion.

I also had an accident with the first trailer in April 2008. It did not involve anyone else and there was no police report. The insurance company called it a total (axle and frame damage) and replaced it. Long battle, but I had to BUY the "totaled" trailer in order to "own" the extras I had installed.

if they compensated you for the loss of the improved trailer, you should not have had to buy anything. If they did include the additions in the value of the trailer, they took the correct route.

The company that made this trailer is Forest River.

Forest River : RV, Cargo Trailers, Boats, Commercial, Housing I am familiar with the area they are located.








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That poses a problem with my continued use of the trailer. Considering the trailer is now 4 years old could I expect to get back the purchase price? They may want to depreciate it, but I argue the cost of continual repairs.

tough argument to make. They could argue a depreciated value as well as at least some of the claimed damages being offset by typical maintenance costs. You have had the use of the trailer for 4 years. It isn't like you could not use the trailer at all.

I would wonder what the manufacturer considers to be the usable life of such a trailer. It could play heavily in attempting to determine any claim you might have.

Refund of the full purchase price? I bought from dealers who obviously made a profit from the sale. Would I also be compensated for all of the damages that were a DIRECT result of the axles? (tires, wheels, bearings, etc.)

see above.

I am curious as to whether Forest River still offers a build such as yours and if they have adjusted the load rating due to the issue.

 

[run4bear]

Bottom line. Everyone I dealt with, the dealer, the factory, the service department, etc. KNEW what I was using this for. I can give you plenty of examples of rigs used similarly. I have a strong argument not to exclude commercial use. besides, 20,00 miles/year is nothing compared to most "commercial" trailer use.

I have no gripe against the insurance company on the claim. I just did not understand that if they insured it, they owned it. But they would not replace "additions" like the solar panels, generator, satellite dish unless they were damaged (which they were not.) but the ONLY way to get them back was to buy the "totaled" trailer. I had the option of going to the salvage auction and possibly buying back the "additions", but my business cannot sit for weeks waiting for the auction and I would have no guarantee of being the winning bidder. I did what I though to be most efficient. The devil is in the details, so I read policies more closely now.

Typical maintenance would not include having to replace tires, etc. twice as often as they typically need replacement. This I can prove from 30 years towing trailers. I normally get 20,000 miles minimum out of trailer tires. I got maybe 10,000 from the same tires used on this trailer: 14 ply steel wall tires, Load Range G 3750# capacity at 110 PSI loaded.

Can I not claim compensation for "pain and suffering?" Heck, I have gone through hell trying to solve this problem. All because of "failure to warn".

FYI, Forest River still builds the EXACT same trailer. They come with much lesser rated tires, though. That's the first thing I replaced when I originally bought the trailers. I know my tires, weigh ratings., etc. I have a CDL and years of hands on experience. I am a woman and I know how some see that, but I do know what I am doing.

 

[justalayman]

run4bear;3014578]Bottom line. Everyone I dealt with, the dealer, the factory, the service department, etc. KNEW what I was using this for.

but it is what can be proven and is documented that will likely rule. I understand your argument but if push comes to shove, they have a bulldozer.

I have no gripe against the insurance company on the claim. I just did not understand that if they insured it, they owned it.

but they apparently did not pay for the items so no, they did not own the additions. You did and what happened was wrong but what is done is done.

Typical maintenance would not include having to replace tires, etc. twice as often as they typically need replacement. This I can prove from 30 years towing trailers. I normally get 20,000 miles minimum out of trailer tires. I got maybe 10,000 from the same tires used on this trailer: 14 ply steel wall tires, Load Range G 3750# capacity at 110 PSI loaded.

I did not say are a total offset. In the tire situation, as an example, you wore out tires twice as fast. That means that over 4 years at 20k per year, you used 8 sets of tires instead of 4. A HUGE problem is documenting the additional tire wear and proving it. Unless there is an odometer on the trailer, they can always defend your claim with:

how do we know the only miles on the trailer coincide exactly with miles registered on the truck?

You also have a statute of limitations issue that would limit how far back you could look to consider damages.

Can I not claim compensation for "pain and suffering?" Heck, I have gone through hell trying to solve this problem. All because of "failure to warn".

P&S is generally relegated to an intentional situation.

FYI, Forest River still builds the EXACT same trailer. They come with much lesser rated tires, though. That's the first thing I replaced when I originally bought the trailers. I know my tires, weigh ratings., etc.

um, you replaced the tires with higher capacity tires than OE? Their argument will be: the tires included were capable of carrying the full rated capacity of the trailer. If the tires were replaced with a higher capacity, one has to presume the user intended on carrying more than the trailer was rated for. A very damaging accusation even if it isn't provable.

I am a woman and I know how some see that, but I do know what I am doing.

you being a man or woman never entered my mind.

 

[run4bear]

but it is what can be proven and is documented that will likely rule. I understand your argument but if push comes to shove, they have a bulldozer.

I'll certainly fight that. I have thousands of customers, most of whom I know personally and many are friends as well. And, I certainly have lived in it full time.



but they apparently did not pay for the items so no, they did not own the additions. You did and what happened was wrong but what is done is done.

I'd have to look back on their policy and what they paid me to replace the trailer (I did have a replacement cost policy). Maybe the only way they would work it was to pay in full for everything, hence their "reasoning". But it is, like you say a done deal now.



I did not say are a total offset. In the tire situation, as an example, you wore out tires twice as fast. That means that over 4 years at 20k per year, you used 8 sets of tires instead of 4. A HUGE problem is documenting the additional tire wear and proving it. Unless there is an odometer on the trailer, they can always defend your claim with:

how do we know the only miles on the trailer coincide exactly with miles registered on the truck?
I NEVER unhook this truck from the trailer (except to grease the ball) Heck, there even drive through service centers for big rigs now, so that makes life easier. I bet NO ONE can say they ever even SAW me unhook this truck.

You also have a statute of limitations issue that would limit how far back you could look to consider damages.

P&S is generally relegated to an intentional situation.

So I supposed I do not need to worry about that. my problems have been well known to both the trailer and the axle company.

um, you replaced the tires with higher capacity tires than OE? Their argument will be: the tires included were capable of carrying the full rated capacity of the trailer. If the tires were replaced with a higher capacity, one has to presume the user intended on carrying more than the trailer was rated for. A very damaging accusation even if it isn't provable.

Heck would YOU use E rated ties, non-steel wall on YOUR trailer? They sell you a trailer with the minimum investment. I know of very few people who don't go right out and buy the best tires they can afford. Most of my customers are horse people and they to not want any extra risks. Not concerned about that at all. I have ALWAYS used Goodyear G614 tires and they have RARELY failed me before getting this trailer. They are BETTER than what the manufacturer uses. I'll win that argument.

you being a man or woman never entered my mind.

It does for some people (even some of the lawyers I talk to - I guess they do not realize there are a LOT of female truck drivers on the road.)

 

[run4bear]

I found this:
Cargo Mate Enclosed Trailers from Heavy Hauler Trailers

The following warranty applies to all CARGO MATE Products. If you have any questions or need assistance regarding the warranty of your product, please call us at: 888-828-2767

3-Year Limited Warranty
CARGO TRAILERS by Forest River, Inc.
Thank you for choosing to purchase a Cargo Trailer by Forest River, Inc., a fine product in
which design and construction have received the care that quality demands. This important
warranty covers many items and is indicative of our desire to stand behind our products and
assure our customers’ complete satisfaction.
WARRANTY COVERAGE
SUMMARY OF WARRANTY: Forest River, Inc., 3010 East College Avenue, P.O. Box 124,
Goshen, IN 46527 (warrantor) warrants only the ORGINAL CONSUMER PURCHASER for a
period of (3) three years from the date of purchase (Warranty Period), that the body structure of
this Cargo Trailer shall be free of substantial defects in materials and workmanship attributable
to Warrantor.
EXCLUSIONS FROM THIS WARRANTY: Warrantor expressly disclaims any
responsibility for damage to the trim and appearance items located in or on the unit where
damage is due to condensation, normal wear and tear, or exposure to the elements. Warrantor
makes no warranty with regard to tires, tubes, batteries, routine maintenance, equipment and
appliances. Some of these items may be warranted by their respective manufacturers and
suppliers. Warranty information with respect to these items is available from your dealer.
The Warrantor further makes no warranty with regard to any product used as a rental unit, or
any product not registered and normally used in the United States or Canada.
LIMITATION AND DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES: WARRANTOR EXPRESSLY
LIMITS THE DURATION OF ALL EXPRESS AND IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
MERCHANTABILITY AND ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF FITNESS FOR A
PARTICULAR PURPOSE TO THE WARRANTY PERIOD OF (3) THREE YEARS.
WARRANTOR EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
MERCHANTABILITY OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AFTER
EXPIRATION OF THE WARRANTY PERIOD. No action to enforce express or implied
warranties shall be commenced later than (90) ninety days after expiration of the warranty
period. There is no warranty of any nature made by the Warrantor beyond that contained in
this Warranty. No person has the authority to enlarge, amend or modify this Warranty.
Some states do not allow limitations on how long an implied warranty lasts, so the above
limitation may not apply to you.
DISCLAIMER OF CONSEQUENTIAL AND INCIDENTAL DAMAGES: THE
ORIGINAL CONSUMER PURCHASER OF THIS CARGO TRAILER AND ANY
PERSON TO WHOM THIS UNIT IS TRANSFERRED, AND ANY PERSON WHO IS
INTENDED OR UNINTENDED BENEFICARY OF THIS UNIT SHALL NOT BE
ENTITLED TO RECOVER FROM WARRANTOR ANY CONSEQUENTIAL OR
INCIDENTAL DAMAGES. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of
incidental damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you.
WARRANTOR’S OBLIGATIONS: Warrantor will remedy substantial defects in materials
and workmanship caused by Warrantor. Warrantor shall elect to remedy the defect from
among the following: repairs, replacement or refund. Warrantor may not elect refund unless
the Purchaser agrees, or the Warrantor is unable to provide replacement and repairs are not
commercially practicable or cannot be timely made. Warranty performance can only be
obtained at Warrantor’s authorized dealers and service centers and from the Warrantor.
6
PURCHASER OBLIGATIONS: Purchaser must complete and return the owner’s
registration card within (10) ten days of purchase to validate this Warranty. The return of this
card is a condition precedent to warranty coverage; failure to return the completed card to the
Warrantor will invalidate this warranty. Purchaser shall deliver this Cargo Trailer for warranty
service within a reasonable time after discovery of the defect and in no event after expiration of
the Warranty period which Warranty Period (3) three years. All expenses incurred by
purchaser in obtaining warranty service shall be borne by Purchaser.
EVENTS DISCHARGING WARRANTOR FROM OBLIGATION UNDER THIS
WARRANTY: Misuse or neglect, including failure to provide reasonable and necessary
maintenance, unauthorized alteration, accident, and improper loading, leasing of the Cargo
Trailer shall discharge Warrantor from any obligation under this warranty.
PARTS AND DESIGN CHANGES: Warrantor reserves the right to change the parts and
design of its Cargo Trailer from time to time without notice and with no obligation to maintain
spare parts or make corresponding changes in its product previously manufactured.
OBTAINING WARRANTY SERVICE: It is recommended that all warranty service be done
by the authorized dealer from whom you purchased your unit. This is to insure your local
dealer’s personal interest in your complete satisfaction. If service becomes necessary as you
are traveling or following a move, service under this warranty will be done by any authorized
dealer in the United States or Canada. Such service should, whenever possible, be scheduled
by an appointment in order to avoid possible delays.
WARRANTY REGISTRATION: A warranty registration card is to be completed by the
owner at the time of purchase and returned to Warrantor. The return of this card is a condition
precedent to warranty coverage; failure to return the completed card to Warrantor will
invalidate this Warranty.
OTHER WARRANTIES: As indicated in the paragraph entitled “Exclusions From This
Warranty,” above, certain items that are not covered by this Warranty may be warranted
separately by their manufacturers or suppliers. In order to validate those warranties, you may
also be required to complete and return to the appropriate manufacturer the warranty forms
included with the information package. These other warranties may cover such items as
chassis, tires, tubes, batteries, optional generators, and appliances, which are not covered by
Limited Warranty. For service or parts required for these products it may be necessary to write
or call the product manufacturer to obtain the nearest service center location. In requesting
parts for separately warranted products from the manufacturer of the product or its authorized
service center it may be necessary to first obtain a warranty work authorization number before
the work is done. It may also be necessary to provide the Product Name, Model and Serial
Number along with the description of the problem and part needed, plus shipping instructions.
See these warranties with respect to their terms and conditions.
OWNER ASSISTANCE: Your personal satisfaction and good will are most important to
Forest River as well as a confident and pleasant relationship with our dealers. We at Forest
River recognize that there may be occasions where a warranty or service problem is not
handled satisfactorily resulting in misunderstanding. If your problem has not been handled to
your satisfaction after discussing it with the dealership management, we welcome you to
contact the Forest River Customer Service Manager, at the address stated above who will
communicate with the local dealer our recommendation for an agreeable solution.
THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY ALSO
HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY FROM STATE TO STATE.

 

[Zigner]

I found this:
Cargo Mate Enclosed Trailers from Heavy Hauler Trailers

The following warranty applies to all CARGO MATE Products....

Irrelevant - you modified the trailer.

 

[run4bear]

I Modified? Forest River were the ones that gave me the advice and assistance in securing parts.

What would any reasonable person have done differently? 7000# axles fail twice. So get bigger ones? What else should have/could have been done?

 

[Zigner]

I Modified? Forest River were the ones that gave me the advice and assistance in securing parts.

What would any reasonable person have done differently? 7000# axles fail twice. So get bigger ones? What else should have/could have been done?

You modified the trailer. I really don't understand why you can't understand that simple fact.

 

[run4bear]

WITH THEIR APPROVAL! Does that not mean anything?

 

[Zigner]

WITH THEIR APPROVAL! Does that not mean anything?

I don't think so.

 

[davidmcbeth3]

WITH THEIR APPROVAL! Does that not mean anything?

Arguing with zigner is like beating your head on a brick wall, yes? If they OKed the modifications then they accepted these changes w/o voiding their responsibility.