Friends offer to supervise visitation- Likelihood it will be granted

[Bloopy]

What is the name of your state? Virginia

Hi all,

I posted load of info on my friend’s case. On impulse, pulled the thread because I was concerned about how specific I was getting about a case I’m not a party to… with dates of my posts matching every event. I guess pulling the thread and now posting again is a major forum foul and yet here I go. I did save my first two posts and recapped the rest.

The father in this case has been awarded full legal and physical custody.

Mom has been found to be Bipolar for year and recently diagnosed as Borderline. She has on several occasions accused the father of molesting the children. One accusation was so specific that it would have to have left serious physical evidence, of course there was none. CPS investigators found evidence of “coaching” stating that the child was very articulate and could give details about a lot things in her life, but couldn’t remember what she was “supposed to say” as taught to her. The child even asked he mother during the interview about what should she say. The mother personally examined the girls as well and taped it to turn in as evidence. Of course, this was viewed as her abusing the girls.

During previous allegations CPS recommended they enter an emergency placement as her behavior and probing was harmful. She was performing vaginal and rectal exams while coaching them. The father thought going with strangers would be as traumatic as staying with the mother. In the end, CPS GAL etc. thought mom would be running so high from the perception of “winning” that the visit wouldn’t be so bad after all. That visit went badly as it included a rape kit at the hospital.

Mother lost custody and was give EOW plus some holidays, a couple of summer weeks etc. She played “nice for 6 months after that, but when her nominal child support payments began, she decided to rehash sexual accusations. It turns out that the mother violated the court orders several ways.

- brought the children to CPS for 2 visits
- Constantly talking about her very graphic accusations with the preschoolers. Even waited in the CPS parking lot for an hour to tell the CPS worker MORE allegations.
- tried to dodge the GAL and the CPS worker specifically mentioned in the custody order
- Contacted the police to discuss accusations in front of the children at least twice
- Took the children to a therapist to discuss the accusation
- Several contacts against court order & failure to return the children on time
- Lost her visitation at the GALs discretion but managed to “snatch” them anyway with the aide of police. Yep, like a dummy Dad was home

Because of all this, a no-contact order was placed on mother and an additional restraining order was put into affect to give the father discretionary right regarding visitation. Its been a month, He is going for supervised visitation. Obviously, at a professional facility would be best.

However, mom is super-involved with her church and 5-6 members showed up at the emergency hearing. The pastor remained in the courtroom and was able to hear everything so at least he knows what mom has been up to. If the church members offer to supervise visitation, how likely is it that it will be granted? They are nice folk, and do mean well, but this won’t work out. The definition of supervised may be fuzzy to a non-professional. It would be difficult to “enforce” supervised when mom is uncooperative. It will be difficult for friends to report when there is a problem out of loyalty. Mother is manipulative and will have some sort of convincing sob story about not wanting to go to jail… how poor she is and how she can’t afford paying for supervised (she has arrears)… How she’s the abused one…

Is there any thing dad should do to solidify why it must be at a facility for now? I looked up Supervised visitation and have good info, but VA has no guidelines and the judge shot down supervised before because it wasn’t feasible.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state? Virginia

Hi all,

I posted load of info on my friend’s case. On impulse, pulled the thread because I was concerned about how specific I was getting about a case I’m not a party to… with dates of my posts matching every event. I guess pulling the thread and now posting again is a major forum foul and yet here I go. I did save my first two posts and recapped the rest.

The father in this case has been awarded full legal and physical custody.

Mom has been found to be Bipolar for year and recently diagnosed as Borderline. She has on several occasions accused the father of molesting the children. One accusation was so specific that it would have to have left serious physical evidence, of course there was none. CPS investigators found evidence of “coaching” stating that the child was very articulate and could give details about a lot things in her life, but couldn’t remember what she was “supposed to say” as taught to her. The child even asked he mother during the interview about what should she say. The mother personally examined the girls as well and taped it to turn in as evidence. Of course, this was viewed as her abusing the girls.

During previous allegations CPS recommended they enter an emergency placement as her behavior and probing was harmful. She was performing vaginal and rectal exams while coaching them. The father thought going with strangers would be as traumatic as staying with the mother. In the end, CPS GAL etc. thought mom would be running so high from the perception of “winning” that the visit wouldn’t be so bad after all. That visit went badly as it included a rape kit at the hospital.

Mother lost custody and was give EOW plus some holidays, a couple of summer weeks etc. She played “nice for 6 months after that, but when her nominal child support payments began, she decided to rehash sexual accusations. It turns out that the mother violated the court orders several ways.

- brought the children to CPS for 2 visits
- Constantly talking about her very graphic accusations with the preschoolers. Even waited in the CPS parking lot for an hour to tell the CPS worker MORE allegations.
- tried to dodge the GAL and the CPS worker specifically mentioned in the custody order
- Contacted the police to discuss accusations in front of the children at least twice
- Took the children to a therapist to discuss the accusation
- Several contacts against court order & failure to return the children on time
- Lost her visitation at the GALs discretion but managed to “snatch” them anyway with the aide of police. Yep, like a dummy Dad was home

Because of all this, a no-contact order was placed on mother and an additional restraining order was put into affect to give the father discretionary right regarding visitation. Its been a month, He is going for supervised visitation. Obviously, at a professional facility would be best.

However, mom is super-involved with her church and 5-6 members showed up at the emergency hearing. The pastor remained in the courtroom and was able to hear everything so at least he knows what mom has been up to. If the church members offer to supervise visitation, how likely is it that it will be granted? They are nice folk, and do mean well, but this won’t work out. The definition of supervised may be fuzzy to a non-professional. It would be difficult to “enforce” supervised when mom is uncooperative. It will be difficult for friends to report when there is a problem out of loyalty. Mother is manipulative and will have some sort of convincing sob story about not wanting to go to jail… how poor she is and how she can’t afford paying for supervised (she has arrears)… How she’s the abused one…

Is there any thing dad should do to solidify why it must be at a facility for now? I looked up Supervised visitation and have good info, but VA has no guidelines and the judge shot down supervised before because it wasn’t feasible.

It would surprize me if a judge would allow church members to be visitation supervisors....a pastor maybe.

 

[CJane]

I don't think Dad should be requesting supervised visitation. I think he should be requesting therapeutic supervision... I think that's what it's called. He needs someone supervising the visitations that is trained to deal with 1) Mom's mental issues and 2) the stuff she's put the kids through. This isn't about just making sure she doesn't take off, or just that she doesn't get overwhelmed with the responsibility. This is about the fact that she's already harmed the children physically and emotionally... and it's imperative that someone is there qho is qualified to deal with the whole picture.

Isn't there a CASA and a GAL envolved? Doesn't CASA have a supervision facility? They do here... it's called Transitions... and they work on a sliding scale.

 

[GrowUp!]

I would NOT allow the church to do so -- NOT even a Pastor. I see a conflict of interest as she is already a member and they could protect her. I know this is extreme, but look at how they "protected their own" for DECADES during the child abuse scandal. I see no neutrality here when mom is a member of the church. I would go more towards CJane's suggestion. Did Mom actually initiate it or is Dad?

 

[Bloopy]

The new CASA worker just met the children (the old one left CASA and for a while there was none, a new one was appointed at the emergency hearing.) This meeting was light as the children were there.

The GAL is brutally awesome in court, like I imagine Ohiogal would be. But she is aloof and impossible to contact otherwise. I know she’s there for the children and not the father but even a quick email about her intentions would be nice.

He will ask for therapeutic supervised.

 

[Bloopy]

Well,

Things worked out okay in court this week. The protective order was continued for a few months with dad having discretionary privileges. Mom must get the full psych consult the children must get counseling. The next court date is in a few months.

Mom will get to see the children once a week for a couple hours, supervised by her pastor. He’s certainly a better choice than the bake sale variety of church members.

The judge didn’t think mom could afford therapeutic supervised visits and didn’t want to make it so the children wouldn’t see their mother.

One of my concerns is that mom will do about whatever she wants and her pastor will keep it “confidential.” I think he thinks he can provide the counseling she needs and he is biting off more than he can chew, though his intentions are good.

My other concern is that EOW had the benefit of giving the children about two weeks to “recover” from a visit. They become so infantile and fragile after seeing her. If it still takes three days to “recover” from seeing her, now it will be three days every week, rather than twice a month.

This was all meant as a follow up. My only legal question is that if this weekly pattern is established, will it likely continue when she –eventually- gets to resume a more “normal” schedule? Would they revert to the EOW only from the past? Or would it likely be EOW plus one day a week? Crystal balls anyone?

 

[CJane]

My other concern is that EOW had the benefit of giving the children about two weeks to “recover” from a visit. They become so infantile and fragile after seeing her. If it still takes three days to “recover” from seeing her, now it will be three days every week, rather than twice a month.

That recovery period, as you call it, is normal (though I realize in this case it's extreme) and will probably lessen with more frequent, but more controlled visitation w/mom. Less trauma, drama and general craziness during visits and being able to just visit mom instead of being rushed off to the ER or into hiding will have a positive impact on the kids, even if the visits themselves aren't all that wonderful.

This was all meant as a follow up. My only legal question is that if this weekly pattern is established, will it likely continue when she –eventually- gets to resume a more “normal” schedule? Would they revert to the EOW only from the past? Or would it likely be EOW plus one day a week? Crystal balls anyone?

I wouldn't count on a full reversal ever taking place. W/Mom's antics and a good GAL AND a CASA involved, it's possible that Mom will never again have overnight visitation.

But if they do work her toward that, I would push very hard for a graduated plan much like what is recommended for an infant.

 

[Bloopy]

Thanks for the reassurance… they do love their mother and everyone wants what’s best for them

Mom is super sugar plum sweet for church but once you get to join her “inner circle” is when the aggression, accusations… begin. This poor pastor has NO idea what he has gotten himself into. It won’t be long before she’s calling him at three am to accuse him of molesting her and the children.

I really wish there were something in the language of the order as to what the pastor is to do if things don’t go well.

 

[casa]

Well,

Things worked out okay in court this week. The protective order was continued for a few months with dad having discretionary privileges. Mom must get the full psych consult the children must get counseling. The next court date is in a few months.

Mom will get to see the children once a week for a couple hours, supervised by her pastor. He’s certainly a better choice than the bake sale variety of church members.

The judge didn’t think mom could afford therapeutic supervised visits and didn’t want to make it so the children wouldn’t see their mother.

One of my concerns is that mom will do about whatever she wants and her pastor will keep it “confidential.” I think he thinks he can provide the counseling she needs and he is biting off more than he can chew, though his intentions are good.

My other concern is that EOW had the benefit of giving the children about two weeks to “recover” from a visit. They become so infantile and fragile after seeing her. If it still takes three days to “recover” from seeing her, now it will be three days every week, rather than twice a month.

This was all meant as a follow up. My only legal question is that if this weekly pattern is established, will it likely continue when she –eventually- gets to resume a more “normal” schedule? Would they revert to the EOW only from the past? Or would it likely be EOW plus one day a week? Crystal balls anyone?

All Good News. I'm not thrilled with a Religious affiliated supervisor, but can see the Judge's discretion re; making it possible to still keep some sort of <safe> contact with Mom.

I really can't guess about what the future visitations will be. Is the weekly visit on a weekday or a weekend day? If it's a weekend day, then the EOW could be argued in the future in order for Dad to have a full weekend w/the kids...

 

[CJane]

It will also help if dad can be as matter of fact as possible about the visits...

No 'prepping' the kids for the visits or trying to 'bolster' them. That would be my tendency, but it can actually make the children more apprehensive instead of less.

And no 'special treats' after visits. Again, that is the normal tendency, but it can work against dad. He needs to at least pretend that HE is sure that the visit will go well and the children will be safe. When picking them up, he should just say "How did it go?" and let them guide the conversation, if there is one.

The less he acts as if there should be an issue, the less the children will feel as if there was one.

Does that make sense?

 

[Bloopy]

The visits will be on a weekday.

In the past, the judge has like EOW plus Wednesdays, first on Dad then mom, then just EOW on mom.

The reason being was that every single exchange was loaded with drama with the mom refusing to return the children and/or playing games as to where and when. The EOWs were though daycare when she cooperated and even with "drama" there were simply fewer exchanges.

Hopefully the judge will remember the wisom of that.

 

[casa]

The visits will be on a weekday.

In the past, the judge has like EOW plus Wednesdays, first on Dad then mom, then just EOW on mom.

The reason being was that every single exchange was loaded with drama with the mom refusing to return the children and/or playing games as to where and when. The EOWs were though daycare when she cooperated and even with "drama" there were simply fewer exchanges.

Hopefully the judge will remember the wisom of that.

And Dad can help remind the judge with statements such as: "Previously, it was most effective/calm when exchanges occurred at_______ or during______".

 

[Bloopy]

It will also help if dad can be as matter of fact as possible about the visits...

No 'prepping' the kids for the visits or trying to 'bolster' them. That would be my tendency, but it can actually make the children more apprehensive instead of less.

And no 'special treats' after visits. Again, that is the normal tendency, but it can work against dad. He needs to at least pretend that HE is sure that the visit will go well and the children will be safe. When picking them up, he should just say "How did it go?" and let them guide the conversation, if there is one.

The less he acts as if there should be an issue, the less the children will feel as if there was one.

Does that make sense?

Great advice!

She’s actually flaked out of a few visits that were beyond the EOW. She even spent one potential visit filing motions with the court instead of actually seeing them. Dad never preps them at all before a visit. If they happen to “run into Mommy” they are happy. But if she flakes out they are never disappointed. The older one had enough calendar sense to know which Fridays were Mommy’s and it was just a part of their routine.

He’s a sweet naïve guy who will smooth everything over without fanfare. He’s as “non-reactive” as humans come. Yep, to a fault at times but it would suck if both parents were stirring the kettle.

 

[Bloopy]

The Mother in the situation DID take the children to the hospital for a SECOND rape kit recently.

The only reason the father found out was that the child mentioned it. Can you imagine a four-year-old describing the tools and how painful they are? Dad could only promise he wouldn&#8217;t let it happen again.

When he asked CPS about it they said. &#8220;Oh yeah. She took them in. But don&#8217;t worry, they didn&#8217;t find anything.&#8221;

Yeah, cause THAT&#8217;s what was of concern him.

 

[Bloopy]

Visits have been going pretty well. The older child has freaked out twice when passing a road near Mom&#8217;s- saying, &#8220;I don&#8217;t want to go to Mommy&#8217;s, I don&#8217;t want to go to the doctors.&#8221; But kiddos seem happy at the supervised visits. Um yeah, therapy for the children starts this week&#8230; long overdue, but alas, wait lists.

I still feel bad for the Pastor because Mom takes about 30 minutes to say goodbye. He tries to chime in with, &#8220;Come on, its time to go now&#8230;&#8221; but she stalls and holds one of the children. Short of snatching the child from her arms and running off, Dad doesn&#8217;t know what to do. All in all, it doesn&#8217;t upset the children, he carves an extra hour of his time for slow transitions and the only one suffering is the pastor.

Court is coming up. Dad is not sure what to expect. He guesses they&#8217;ll review her psych evaluation and how the visits are going.

I think the Pastor may be backing down a bit. What is the risk of backing down from Supervised visits? Could Dad be entitled to find out anything about compliance and results with psych testing before court?