Help in WI

[azgrandpa]

posted by rmet4nzkx

Now using your own logic, was he in a foster home at age 16-18 yo if he was abused or because he was incorrigible?

There's no logic to it! Until his statements are disputed by someone with knowledge of the situation; his version is accepted! Isn't that what the law school taught you?

I haven't seen a word from him where he admitted to a long history of defiant behavior.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

posted by rmet4nzkx


There's no logic to it! Until his statements are disputed by someone with knowledge of the situation; his version is accepted! Isn't that what the law school taught you?

I haven't seen a word from him where he admitted to a long history of defiant behavior.

That's because he had it there and deleted it, the rest was there. Also his mother would not have been given visitation if she had a history of child abuse as OP claims. Remember OP didn't fight the action.

 

[LdiJ]

I'm sure there is more to the story still.

Ohio holds jurisdiction because your divorce and custody were there and after you and your ex moved out of state, you failed to domesticate it in WI, something else you forgot to do. Had you done that, your mother would have been the one filing for visitation in WI and she would have had the problem traveling in the snow.

You have an attitude and because of that attitude I suspect that you were not in a foster home between 16-18 because of child abuse, more likely because you could not get along with your parents. Now you are grown up and still playing your games and your children are learning the same games from you.

We'll hear from you again when you can't control your children.

Yes your mother can have visitation, because of your failures, not hers.

Rmet...you gave some incorrect information here. The jurisdiction of the GPV suit has nothing to do with the jurisdiction of the parental case. Its completely separate. I am honestly correct on that.

 

[LdiJ]

What are you talking about, OHIO has jurisdiction, that is where grandmother got visitation, an OHIO judge granted the visitation order. Stevieboy here didn't domesticate to WI and he failed to impress the OHIO judge that he gave a darn by failing to respond to the summons. His teenage children didn't have an opportunity to testify before the judge because Stevieboy didn't care enough to respond to the summons. When his mother shows up with her valid visitation orders from OHIO from the same court that provided his custody orders, they will enforce the visitation or he will be held in contempt in OHIO and could lose custody of his children because we don't know much other than Stevieboy here has no respect for anyone.

Rmet....I am really sorry, but you are mixing up the "rules" regarding parental cases with the rules regarding third party visitation cases. They are completely and totally different. Also, the reasons why he was in foster care, whether or not grandma was abusive etc. whether or not he has a history of defiance are all irrelevant to this discussion....because its a third party case involving teenagers who have no interest in visiting with the third party.

A judge DOES NOT have the option of giving custody of the children to the grandparents if the father does not honor a third party visitation order. Not only that, but the judge's options regarding contempt cannot be enforced beyond the borders of Ohio. Therefore even if the judge were to sentence the dad to jail for non compliance, as long as dad stays out of ohio, the judge can't do squat about it. Its civil contempt and the judge doesn't have any option to make it criminal contempt because its a third party case. The OH judges know that very well, (significant case law on the issue in OH) and won't even attempt to go beyond their borders to enforce contempt rulings.

Also, WI WILL NOT automatically enforce the third party visitation order. Grandma would have to domestic the order in WI. Dad could, at that time argue that the OH order is invalid because he and the children are not residents of OH nor were they legal residents of OH at the time that Grandma filed her case. Therefore its very unlikely that the WI judge would domestic the order. The judge would instruct Grandma to file in WI, or would simply take jurisdiction and HEAR the case at that time, and then she would lose because the kids are teenagers and don't want to visit.

Yes, dad totally messed up. He should have responded to the case, even if he didn't use an attorney, by challenging jursidiction since he and the children aren't residents of OH. That would have ended it there. However he didn't, so now he has to deal with some complication....however so does grandma because its a third party case.

Honestly Rmet, I have worked with families for over 10 years helping them fight third party visitation cases. I have worked with more than 1500 families nationwide. I know what I am talking about, and I won't allow even an attorney to contradict me because I honestly know the law better on this issue than most attorneys do....and there isn't an attorney out there who knows it better than I do unless they have made it their primary career focus.

Go and read every single bit of case law that has come out in the last 10 years regarding third party visitation (actually, you can just read it all since June, 2000, when the USSC Troxel ruling was made) in all 50 states. Then read the specific laws for each of the 50 states. Then obtain some experience in each state with how the trial court judges are ruling. Then if you want to argue a point of law with me you will at least be on a equal playing field.

To the OP: Please DO contact me at [email protected] You are going to have to deal with some hassle...but if you handle things right from this point on there is nothing that Grandma can do to enforce the OH order or obtain visitation in WI.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Rmet...you gave some incorrect information here. The jurisdiction of the GPV suit has nothing to do with the jurisdiction of the parental case. Its completely separate. I am honestly correct on that.

It's not relevant and you are wrong. Jurisdiction has NEVER been changed to WI from OHIO period. Dad admitted moving from OH to WI 1.5 years ago to avoid his mother, he deleted that information after posting it, which is a sign that he is not being honest with us. He has had 1 year to move jurisdiciton to WI, he hasn't, that's another fact. We don't even know if mom knows where her children are. WI has no jurisdiction and OHIO is now unlikely to give it up or maybe there was a reason why that OP isn't telling us. There is no problem that GPV order is from OHIO court, that is correct court to issue order until there is a change. Steven has made his own problem, he failed to respond to the summons, he failed to allow his children their voice, those are the facts, what purpose does it serve for you to continuely to spread misinformaiton. Communicate and plot with him offline to defy the courts orders, what is that, aiding and abetting, we can't do that here and that is why you took it off line, why do you persist on bringing attention to your illegal activities, no wonder IAAL gets so frustrated with you.

"Email me at [email protected] ...You are fine...and so are your kids. You "goofed" legally but its not a fatally serious goof....There is more but I won't talk about it here. Seriously...you don't have to give in to her threats....as long as both you and the kids stay out of OH." YOU know you are wrong and should not be advising him to defy the court, It's not her threats, it's the court orders.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Rmet....I am really sorry, but you are mixing up the "rules" regarding parental cases with the rules regarding third party visitation cases. They are completely and totally different. Also, the reasons why he was in foster care, whether or not grandma was abusive etc. whether or not he has a history of defiance are all irrelevant to this discussion....because its a third party case involving teenagers who have no interest in visiting with the third party.

A judge DOES NOT have the option of giving custody of the children to the grandparents if the father does not honor a third party visitation order. Not only that, but the judge's options regarding contempt cannot be enforced beyond the borders of Ohio. Therefore even if the judge were to sentence the dad to jail for non compliance, as long as dad stays out of ohio, the judge can't do squat about it. Its civil contempt and the judge doesn't have any option to make it criminal contempt because its a third party case. The OH judges know that very well, (significant case law on the issue in OH) and won't even attempt to go beyond their borders to enforce contempt rulings.

Also, WI WILL NOT automatically enforce the third party visitation order. Grandma would have to domestic the order in WI. Dad could, at that time argue that the OH order is invalid because he and the children are not residents of OH nor were they legal residents of OH at the time that Grandma filed her case. Therefore its very unlikely that the WI judge would domestic the order. The judge would instruct Grandma to file in WI, or would simply take jurisdiction and HEAR the case at that time, and then she would lose because the kids are teenagers and don't want to visit.

Yes, dad totally messed up. He should have responded to the case, even if he didn't use an attorney, by challenging jursidiction since he and the children aren't residents of OH. That would have ended it there. However he didn't, so now he has to deal with some complication....however so does grandma because its a third party case.

Honestly Rmet, I have worked with families for over 10 years helping them fight third party visitation cases. I have worked with more than 1500 families nationwide. I know what I am talking about, and I won't allow even an attorney to contradict me because I honestly know the law better on this issue than most attorneys do....and there isn't an attorney out there who knows it better than I do unless they have made it their primary career focus.

Your personal vendetta or agenda doesn't give you any right to conspire with OP to defy the court's order, you also don't have the facts of the case and cannot say how any judge will rule. A case will be decided by it's merits, not by your will or opinion. You are not the judge. The history of the case goes back years and yes it will be significant, nor do we know the grandmother's role in it prior to father's flight to WI to avoid visitation. All you can do is refer Steven to an attorney in OHIO and to follow the courts order, The court knew he was in WI when they issued the order.

This forum is not an underground network designed to circumvent lawful orders of the court. We can advise him of the law, to obey orders and the potential consequences of the case, not conspire with him as you are attemoting to do, that won't help. "To the OP: Please DO contact me at [email protected] You are going to have to deal with some hassle...but if you handle things right from this point on there is nothing that Grandma can do to enforce the OH order or obtain visitation in WI."

 

[LdiJ]

It's not relevant and you are wrong. Jurisdiction has NEVER been changed to WI from OHIO period. Dad admitted moving from OH to WI 1.5 years ago to avoid his mother, he deleted that information after posting it, which is a sign that he is not being honest with us. He has had 1 year to move jurisdiciton to WI, he hasn't, that's another fact. We don't even know if mom knows where her children are. WI has no jurisdiction and OHIO is now unlikely to give it up or maybe there was a reason why that OP isn't telling us. There is no problem that GPV order is from OHIO court, that is correct court to issue order until there is a change. Steven has made his own problem, he failed to respond to the summons, he failed to allow his children their voice, those are the facts, what purpose does it serve for you to continuely to spread misinformaiton. Communicate and plot with him offline to defy the courts orders, what is that, aiding and abetting, we can't do that here and that is why you took it off line, why do you persist on bringing attention to your illegal activities, no wonder IAAL gets so frustrated with you.

"Email me at [email protected] ...You are fine...and so are your kids. You "goofed" legally but its not a fatally serious goof....There is more but I won't talk about it here. Seriously...you don't have to give in to her threats....as long as both you and the kids stay out of OH." YOU know you are wrong and should not be advising him to defy the court, It's not her threats, it's the court orders.

Rmet... you are NOT listening. You could technically be correct that OH retains jurisdiction over the parents divorce and custody/visitation issues BETWEEN THE PARENTS.

The grandmothers case for visitation has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. Even if mom still lived in Ohio and had matters pending before the Ohio courts that still would have nothing to do with the jursidiction of the grandparents case.
The grandparents case is SEPARATE, completely. You are ignoring a basic and fundamental part of law. The fact that he hasn't registered his orders in the parental case in WI is also COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the gpv case.

I prefer to take it offline because none of you here know anything about third party cases and you confuse the heck out of the posters when it gets down to the nitty gritty details. I am not "conspiring" with the parents to break the law, I am helping the parents to properly APPLY the law. Which you can't do because you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to third party visitation.

If you want to pay attention and learn, then I will stop taking things offline. However if you continue to insist that these cases are the same as parent vs parent cases, or that the same rules apply or that the judges have the option of giving custody to the grandparents for non-compliance....or anything else that is common to a parent vs parent case, then I am going to continue to take them offline, because things are COMPLETELY different in a parent vs third party case, and I am not going to allow these posters to get confused, and possibly make major strategic errors because you confuse them.

Do you give grandparents or other third parties equal standing to parents when you are making your evaluations? Of course not. You obviously recognize the difference there. So recognize that there is a difference in how the law works in third party cases.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Rmet... you are NOT listening.
I'm listening and you are wrong I'd rather go back to bed or watch infomercials, but I'm geting tired of you conspiring to break the law with people who come here for informaiton.

You could technically be correct that OH retains jurisdiction over the parents divorce and custody/visitation OK so we are in agreement here OHIO has jurisdiction over custody/visitation

The grandmothers case for visitation has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. Even if mom still lived in Ohio and had matters pending before the Ohio courts that still would have nothing to do with the jursidiction of the grandparents case.
Apparently the OHIO judge who holds jurisdiction believes otherwise or they would not have issued the order, perhaps they didn't consult you so you could inform them of the law, why have you not even hinted that OP might appeal the judges decision or retain an attorney to competently represent him in court, instead, you want to practice law without a license.

The grandparents case is SEPARATE, completely. You are ignoring a basic and fundamental part of law.
And what is that, please cite the applicible OH or WI code? You can't or won't because everytime you are asked this same quesiton, you always refuse, because it doesn't exist just as you made such claims about the NCP's right to obtain medical care for child while in their custody, why, because taking a child to a doctor might jeopardize your position. You are biased and not following the law or the best interest of the child.

The fact that he hasn't registered his orders in the parental case in WI is also COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the gpv case.
It's revevant to jurisdiction and is one of the issues that would have to be overcome in an appeal, because OP has no grounds for appeal.

I prefer to take it offline because none of you here know anything about third party cases and you confuse the heck out of the posters when it gets down to the nitty gritty details. I am not "conspiring" with the parents to break the law, I am helping the parents to properly APPLY the law. Which you can't do because you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to third party visitation.
Well, then where are you supporters? You are conspiring with OP and advising him not to follow the lawful order of the court of jurisdiciton, that is all that is relevant, you will find yourself off this forum if you continue to advise posters to knowingly bread the law. You know enough to be dangerous but are not is a place to do anything about it, People in your place have ended up convicted and in prison for aiding and abetting.

If you want to pay attention and learn, then I will stop taking things offline. However if you continue to insist that these cases are the same as parent vs parent cases, or that the same rules apply or that the judges have the option of giving custody to the grandparents for non-compliance....or anything else that is common to a parent vs parent case, then I am going to continue to take them offline, because things are COMPLETELY different in a parent vs third party case, and I am not going to allow these posters to get confused, and possibly make major strategic errors because you confuse them.
Again, you cannot decide how a court will rule, you have to take it offline to avoid getting banned and you are very close to it already.

Do you give grandparents or other third parties equal standing to parents when you are making your evaluations? Of course not. You obviously recognize the difference there. So recognize that there is a difference in how the law works in third party cases.

I don't grant standing to anyone, I'm not the finder of fact. I deal with facts and evidence, along with my professional opinion. Please don't tell me what I do or don't do. I take each case and evaluate it based on its merits which includes what I see to be the most plausable opinion and alternative opinions when relevant, sometimes it is based on limited information and could change dramatically with different information. I don't decide anything that is the courts pleasure although I have what is called quasi judical immunity, that doesn't give me the right to rule on a case.

If I can't do that, then you certainally can't say how a judge will rule or if they are wrong. If OP had a valid means of appeal, you should have explained what that was, but you can't because it doesn't exist.

 

[LdiJ]

To the Original Poster

I am going to stop arguing with Rmet, since Remt doesn't know what she is talking about on this issue. I am also going to give you the same advice that I would have given you offline, so that the others don't get all huffy about "underground" information.

Ok...here goes

Do not obey the order. You still need to make a jurisdictional challenge in Ohio and obeying the order is accepting Ohio's jurisdiction. Ohio definitely did not have jurisdiction despite what the others have said. You are not breaking the law by refusing to obey the order, because it is an invalid order. The grandparent visitation suit is separate from the parental case. States don't have jurisdiction over children, they have jursidiction over court cases involving children. Just because a state may have jurisdiction over one case (an ongoing parental case, which remains in effect until the children are adults) doesn't give that state jurisdiction over another case involving that child.

For example, if CPS in your state got involved with your children due to a neglect or abuse situation, Ohio would not be able to assert jurisdiction over that case either. Its a separate case. Ohio can only assert jurisdiction over the ongoing case between the two parents....and in your case ohio wouldn't be likely to do that because neither of you are residents of Ohio any longer.

You need to get an attorney in Ohio, QUICKLY because you don't have much time. You need to have the attorney file a "Motion to Correct Errors". In that motion the attorney will need to outline the fact that you and your children were not residents of Ohio at the time that grandma's petition was filed and that Ohio did not have "subject matter jurisdiction". You can also include in the motion that the children are teenagers and have no wish to visit with grandma. The judge SHOULD vacate the order. The judge should understand that Ohio doesn't have jursidiction and that its a moot point anyway because the kids are teens and don't want to visit.

However, if the judge stubbornly tries to hold on to jurisdiction (which shouldn't happen but might if the judge wants to teach you a lesson about properly responding to service in a court case) then you have the option of appealing the case, where you would win, or of simply ignoring the Ohio order. The Ohio judge cannot enforce it over the Ohio border. Nor can the police in your area do anything to help grandma. Personally, I would recommend ignoring the Ohio order and reserving your financial resources for any court action in WI. (and one more thing. If you were properly served in WI, then the judge knew full well that Ohio might not have had jurisdiction in the first place)

You want to tell the Ohio attorney that you only want to retain him/her to handle the "motion to correct errors". That you will decide whether or not to retain him/her further based on the results of that motion. You don't want to pay a large retainer to the attorney if you aren't going to handle anything further in Ohio. Plus, if you choose to handle things further in Ohio, you will probably want an attorney that specializes in appeals. If you choose not to handle anything further in Ohio, or to use that attorney for an appeal, then be sure to officially terminate the services of the attorney so that the attorney can no longer accept service on your behalf.

You cannot at any time voluntarily obey the Ohio order, because that would be accepting Ohio's jurisdiction, which again, Ohio does not have unless you make any further mistakes and give it to Ohio. Again, you are not breaking the law in refusing to obey the order....because its not a valid order. However in case the judge gets really ticked off about not being obeyed, you will need to be sure to keep out of Ohio. Grandma may file for contempt in OH...and the judge may find you in contempt but don't stress over it. Even if the judge sentences you to jail for contempt, don't stress over it. Its not a valid order and the judge cannot enforce anything as long as you stay out of Ohio.

At that point grandma would have no choice but to bring the order to WI and to attempt to have it domesticated. If she chooses not to do that, then everything is over (as long as you stay out of Ohio). However if she does pursue it, at that point you would argue against the domestication because Ohio did not have jurisdiction to make the order. The WI judge should agree with you. At that point the judge would either dismiss the domestication case, (and tell grandma she has to start over in WI) or the judge would choose to take jurisdiction and hear the visitation case at that time. Because the children are teenagers and don't wish to visit, the WI judge would have no basis to order visitation. However, just to be safe, you need to include Troxel as part of your argument. Again...its not a parental case and the rules are different.

Should the WI judge decide to domesticate the order after all (which the judge might do because the judge might want to teach you a lesson about properly responding to service in a court case), then you would simply turn around and file a motion to vacate the order, based on the fact that the children are teenagers and do not wish to visit, again you would throw Troxel into that argument too. (USSC case, Troxel vs Granville, June 2000)

Again, the judge should vacate the order. However, if it actually gets to that point, and the judge DOESN'T vacate the order, then you need to appeal. If you appeal, you WILL win.

There is a decent chance that nothing will go beyond your "motion to correct errors" in Ohio....as long as you get on top of that and handle it quickly...like first thing Monday morning. You may have a 10 day deadline for filing that, and you will already be half way through those 10 days on Monday. So get yourself an attorney QUICKLY.

However if your mother is bound and determined to maintain some form of control over you, then its likely that she will bring the case to WI. She knows that the children don't want to visit even if she refuses to admit it.
So this case is about control rather than about the kids. The kids will be 18 soon (some sooner than others) and will have free choice whether or not to visit her. Therefore she could have just been patient and waited...its not as if they were little ones who would completely forget her. Therefore don't be disappointed or stress out too much if she does bring it to WI.

If its about control she still would have brought it to WI even if you hadn't messed up and not stopped it initially in Ohio.

EDIT: No one should ever remotely think that any of this advice or strategy would be applicable to a parent vs parent case, even if there are jurisdictional issues in those cases.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

How to be a fugitive -

LdiJ
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,181
To the Original Poster
I am going to stop arguing with Rmet, since Remt doesn't know what she is talking about on this issue. I am also going to give you the same advice that I would have given you offline, so that the others don't get all huffy about "underground" information.

Ok...here goes

Do not obey the order. You still need to make a jurisdictional challenge in Ohio and obeying the order is accepting Ohio's jurisdiction. Ohio definitely did not have jurisdiction despite what the others have said. You are not breaking the law by refusing to obey the order, because it is an invalid order. The grandparent visitation suit is separate from the parental case. States don't have jurisdiction over children, they have jursidiction over court cases involving children. Just because a state may have jurisdiction over one case (an ongoing parental case, which remains in effect until the children are adults) doesn't give that state jurisdiction over another case involving that child.

For example, if CPS in your state got involved with your children due to a neglect or abuse situation, Ohio would not be able to assert jurisdiction over that case either. Its a separate case. Ohio can only assert jurisdiction over the ongoing case between the two parents....and in your case ohio wouldn't be likely to do that because neither of you are residents of Ohio any longer.

You need to get an attorney in Ohio, QUICKLY because you don't have much time. You need to have the attorney file a "Motion to Correct Errors". In that motion the attorney will need to outline the fact that you and your children were not residents of Ohio at the time that grandma's petition was filed and that Ohio did not have "subject matter jurisdiction". You can also include in the motion that the children are teenagers and have no wish to visit with grandma. The judge SHOULD vacate the order. The judge should understand that Ohio doesn't have jursidiction and that its a moot point anyway because the kids are teens and don't want to visit.

However, if the judge stubbornly tries to hold on to jurisdiction (which shouldn't happen but might if the judge wants to teach you a lesson about properly responding to service in a court case) then you have the option of appealing the case, where you would win, or of simply ignoring the Ohio order. The Ohio judge cannot enforce it over the Ohio border. Nor can the police in your area do anything to help grandma. Personally, I would recommend ignoring the Ohio order and reserving your financial resources for any court action in WI.

You want to tell the Ohio attorney that you only want to retain him/her to handle the "motion to correct errors". That you will decide whether or not to retain him/her further based on the results of that motion. You don't want to pay a large retainer to the attorney if you aren't going to handle anything further in Ohio. Plus, if you choose to handle things further in Ohio, you will probably want an attorney that specializes in appeals. If you choose not to handle anything further in Ohio, or to use that attorney for an appeal, then be sure to officially terminate the services of the attorney so that the attorney can no longer accept service on your behalf.

You cannot at any time voluntarily obey the Ohio order, because that would be accepting Ohio's jurisdiction, which again, Ohio does not have unless you make any further mistakes and give it to Ohio. Again, you are not breaking the law in refusing to obey the order....because its not a valid order. However in case the judge gets really ticked off about not being obeyed, you will need to be sure to keep out of Ohio. Grandma may file for contempt in OH...and the judge may find you in contempt but don't stress over it. Even if the judge sentences you to jail for contempt, don't stress over it. Its not a valid order and the judge cannot enforce anything as long as you stay out of Ohio.

At that point grandma would have no choice but to bring the order to WI and to attempt to have it domesticated. If she chooses not to do that, then everything is over (as long as you stay out of Ohio). However if she does pursue it, at that point you would argue against the domestication because Ohio did not have jurisdiction to make the order. The WI judge should agree with you. At that point the judge would either dismiss the domestication case, (and tell grandma she has to start over in WI) or the judge would choose to take jurisdiction and hear the visitation case at that time. Because the children are teenagers and don't wish to visit, the WI judge would have no basis to order visitation. However, just to be safe, you need to include Troxel as part of your argument. Again...its not a parental case and the rules are different.

Should the WI judge decide to domesticate the order after all (which the judge might do because the judge might want to teach you a lesson about properly responding to service in a court case), then you would simply turn around and file a motion to vacate the order, based on the fact that the children are teenagers and do not wish to visit, again you would throw Troxel into that argument too. (USSC case, Troxel vs Granville, June 2000)

Again, the judge should vacate the order. However, if it actually gets to that point, and the judge DOESN'T vacate the order, then you need to appeal. If you appeal, you WILL win.

There is a decent chance that nothing will go beyond your "motion to correct errors" in Ohio....as long as you get on top of that and handle it quickly...like first thing Monday morning. You may have a 10 day deadline for filing that, and you will already be half way through those 10 days on Monday. So get yourself an attorney QUICKLY.

However if your mother is bound and determined to maintain some form of control over you, then its likely that she will bring the case to WI. She knows that the children don't want to visit even if she refuses to admit it.
So this case is about control rather than about the kids. The kids will be 18 soon (some sooner than others) and will have free choice whether or not to visit her. Therefore she could have just been patient and waited...its not as if they were little ones who would completely forget her. Therefore don't be disappointed or stress out too much if she does bring it to WI.

If its about control she still would have brought it to WI even if you hadn't messed up and not stopped it initially in Ohio. (This is the end of the original text without edits)

EDIT: No one should ever remotely think that any of this advice or strategy would be applicable to a parent vs parent case, even if there are jurisdictional issues in those cases.

LMAOAROTF
Say goodbye to Ldij

 

[LdiJ]

LMAOAROTF
Say goodbye to Ldij

You really don't like to admit it when you don't actually know what you are talking about do you?

There was nothing whatsoever wrong with any of that. It was all correct.

You may want a parent to believe that they have to honor all court orders, even if the orders are invalid due to jurisdictional issues in a third party case.
However in that instance you are wrong. You need to start reading some case law on this issue. You aren't an attorney either yet you are insisting that you are correct without even taking the time to study the subject. That is disappointing.

Ohio does not have jurisdiction of this case. Grandma got the ruling by default because dad was foolish enough to ignore everything. The order is invalid and cannot be enforced anywhere but in Ohio. This is fact.

I suggest that if the Original Poster is scared by the stuff that Rmet is insisting is true....that the original poster get a consult with an attorney in WI who actually has some significant experience with grandparent/third party visitation cases. Preferibly one who has won some for parents.

Take the information I gave here to the attorney. Then you can find out easily whether or not I am right. Don't take it to an attorney in Ohio, take it to one in WI. Its the state of WI that is going to end up making the final decision whether or not the order will be enforced. I did not advocate anything illegal or contrary to the law. I advocated that the OP protect his rights by not honoring an invalid order from a foreign jurisdiction.

The bottom line is that Ohio did not have jurisdiction for the purposes of this case. WI is not going to enforce a foreign ruling against one of its legal residents when the state making the ruling did not have subject matter jurisdiction.

Rmet's entire argument is based on the fact that Rmet believes that a state retains jurisdiction over a child in ALL matter of law, just because a state MAY retain jurisdiction of a separate case between two parents. Rmet is incorrect. Rmet's arguement is also faulty regarding whether or not Ohio retains jurisdiction of even the parental case...since neither party to that case resides in Ohio or is attempting to assert jurisdiction in Ohio.

 

[Stevecox]

I would like to thank LdiJ for the very clear cut advice without being judgmental. I have spoke to a lawyer in Ohio and he has agreed to take the case. I will be discussing the information that you gave with him tomorrow. As for those of you who think that I am not being "truthful", yes moving out of Ohio to get away from my family was one of the many factors is going, which I am not going to get into in fear that it will be twisted around. And yes, their mother knows where her children are, she just chooses because of her lifestyle not to have a lot of contact with them, that is how I got custody of them in the first place. LdiJ, I will keep you informed on how this progresses and I thank you again.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Flipper

Flipper says consult an attorney in Ohio, then WI, read Ohio case law, then WI case law, but never cites any law when challenged. And best of all, defy court orders and become a fugitive, oh that sets a good example for his children. Just because you don't like a ruling that doens't mean you can disregard it. OP made a decision when he ignored the summons. It doens't matter what his children think or don't think, because he doesn't care what anyone thinks but him and getting his way.

 

[azgrandpa]

posted by LdiJ:

Take the information I gave here to the attorney. Then you can find out easily whether or not I am right. Don't take it to an attorney in Ohio, take it to one in WI. Its the state of WI that is going to end up making the final decision whether or not the order will be enforced. I did not advocate anything illegal or contrary to the law. I advocated that the OP protect his rights by not honoring an invalid order from a foreign jurisdiction.

Your responses were very imformative and I applaud you for sticking to your understanding of how the law works!

I wanted , so badly to defend the OP in his decision (or indecision), not to respond to the summons! But not knowing enough about law to respond to all the legalise that would follow; I decided to to stay out! I felt all along that by not responding; he did not submit to Ohio's jurisdiction! Now, of course, he could have responded with a "jurisdictional defense", but he would still be submitting to the Ohio court's jurisdiction!! (A big NO-NO in my book!)

The one BIG thing I've learned about law; is that if you don't standup for your rights; then you lose them! BUT, know WHEN and WHERE to stand up!

By the way...we all use the word rights wrongly! If it can be taken from you; it's a privilege not a right! A right is something you are born with.

Now, you all can jump all over this if you please; but I've had my final say on this thread.
Gramps

 

[LdiJ]

I would like to thank LdiJ for the very clear cut advice without being judgmental. I have spoke to a lawyer in Ohio and he has agreed to take the case. I will be discussing the information that you gave with him tomorrow. As for those of you who think that I am not being "truthful", yes moving out of Ohio to get away from my family was one of the many factors is going, which I am not going to get into in fear that it will be twisted around. And yes, their mother knows where her children are, she just chooses because of her lifestyle not to have a lot of contact with them, that is how I got custody of them in the first place. LdiJ, I will keep you informed on how this progresses and I thank you again.

Steve, the Ohio attorney is likely to try to get you to obey the order...at least for the time being. The reason for this is that the Ohio attorney is an officer of the specific court that made the order and really has no choice but to encourage you to obey. You need the Ohio attorney to make the motion there, but you also need to consult with a WI attorney on the bulk of the advice that I gave you. Make sure that your Ohio attorney ONLY addresses the issue of jurisdiction. Make it clear to your Ohio attorney that you do not wish to submit to the jursidiction of Ohio. I am not suggesting that you retain a WI attorney at this point, but it would be wise to consult with one.....and I recommend shopping around for one that has experience with gpv.

If your mother is determined to control you, you are going to end up dealing with this issue in WI in the end. She will either bring the Ohio orders to WI for domestication, or she will end up filing in WI. So being prepared to handle things in WI is your best course of action.

Also, keep my email address and feel free to contact me any time that you like. I am working with other families originally out of Ohio too. (as well as a lot of other places). We have a rather large email support group. If it gets to the point where the case is actually heard on its merits (which I would only recommend happening in WI...otherwise you would be submitting to Ohio's jurisdiction), there is quite a bit of material that I would recommend that you give to your attorney.

A New York law professor, Steven A Newman, wrote an excellent article which was published in the Boston University Public Interest Law Journal which could be extremely useful to your attorney if you get to the point where the case is heard on its merits.