Zigner
Senior Member, Non-Attorney
So, to make sure we're on the same page. When you entered the tunnel there was an electronic sign that read "30 mph", right?
And how fast were you cited for?
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Incorrect Violation Code On NYC Ticket?
- Thread starter jayr
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And how fast were you cited for?
HighwayMan
Super Secret Senior Member
Editing this because at the time I didn't see the second page of posts...
If the sign you were referring to earlier is the one in your first picture (the overhead sign) then it is NOT an enforceable speed limit. Violating that limit could help build a case for unreasonable or imprudent speed but there is no per se speed limit there.
Secondly, how do you know the officer wasn't using lidar?
Just to be clear you were traveling in the same direction the camera is facing (first picture) (i.e. driving away from the camera)? I believe that's north, correct?
If the sign you were referring to earlier is the one in your first picture (the overhead sign) then it is NOT an enforceable speed limit. Violating that limit could help build a case for unreasonable or imprudent speed but there is no per se speed limit there.
Secondly, how do you know the officer wasn't using lidar?
Just to be clear you were traveling in the same direction the camera is facing (first picture) (i.e. driving away from the camera)? I believe that's north, correct?
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HighwayMan
Super Secret Senior Member
Just a couple of things...
Again, how do you know she wasn't using lidar?
If it WAS radar, radar easily bends around objects. The truck, because of its size, should have registered as the target vehicle since you are smaller and behind it... however...
If the radar (if it was radar) has a "fastest" mode then it will display two targets - the target that returned the strongest signal (which would be the truck) and the fastest target which could have been you, even if only a few miles per hour difference.
Again, how do you know she wasn't using lidar?
If it WAS radar, radar easily bends around objects. The truck, because of its size, should have registered as the target vehicle since you are smaller and behind it... however...
If the radar (if it was radar) has a "fastest" mode then it will display two targets - the target that returned the strongest signal (which would be the truck) and the fastest target which could have been you, even if only a few miles per hour difference.
Hi, I'm not sure if it was lidar or radar..it was handheld with one circle in the middle--I've seen state troops use the same one if that helps any, I was cited for 49 in a 30
HighwayMan
Super Secret Senior Member
I always write what I use in the description of offense box but it's certainly not a requirement. There is no way to find out ahead of time either. There is no discovery in NY State for traffic cases and no supporting depositions can be requested at an administrative hearing.
Certainly the truck in front of you makes it interesting - which TVB is your hearing scheduled in? Manhattan South on Washington Street or Manhattan North on 125th Street?
Certainly the truck in front of you makes it interesting - which TVB is your hearing scheduled in? Manhattan South on Washington Street or Manhattan North on 125th Street?
Afternoon hearing @ Manhattan South, do you think I should pose this question to the officer during the hearing or just plead and pay fine?
HighwayMan
Super Secret Senior Member
It can't hurt you to have a hearing. It only costs you time.
The officer will testify and specify what she used and will have to testify as to how the unit was tested.
You can raise the issue of the truck and do the best you can. There are many attorneys that work out of that office and you can try to speak to one to get an opinion or hire one if the price is right.
Again, it sounds to me as if the officer is experienced and I'm guessing that this is a regular enforcement spot. If so then your chances aren't good.
Without knowing what the officer saw and did it's hard for me to say, but I'd think that with the right judge you might get off if you can convince him that the officer's observation of you was disrupted by the truck.
I have never been at that location and have no idea what the angles are like, so I can't say how easy it would be, even with lidar, to grab a vehicle traveling behind another, especially a truck.
The officer will testify and specify what she used and will have to testify as to how the unit was tested.
You can raise the issue of the truck and do the best you can. There are many attorneys that work out of that office and you can try to speak to one to get an opinion or hire one if the price is right.
Again, it sounds to me as if the officer is experienced and I'm guessing that this is a regular enforcement spot. If so then your chances aren't good.
Without knowing what the officer saw and did it's hard for me to say, but I'd think that with the right judge you might get off if you can convince him that the officer's observation of you was disrupted by the truck.
I have never been at that location and have no idea what the angles are like, so I can't say how easy it would be, even with lidar, to grab a vehicle traveling behind another, especially a truck.
HighwayMan
Super Secret Senior Member
One more thought...
If it was radar that was used, the judges in the TVB like to hear that your vehicle was the only one in the radar set's "zone of influence".
Zone of influence isn't really a range setting it's a sensitivity setting. There is no way to control the range of the radar - once the beam is transmitted that's it. However, we can simulate a range by having the set ignore returns that are below a certain strength. So, typically the sensitivity setting is on a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being least sensitive and 5 being most sensitive.
What the officer is supposed to do is verify out on the street what the effective zone of influence is for the particular sensitivity setting - it can vary based on weather, temperature, etc.
So I setup in my spot with my radar and turn it on. I set the sensitivity to "2" and I observe traffic approaching me. I see about how close a vehicle gets to me before it generates a target reading on my radar set. Let's say it's 300 feet. So during that enforcement period my zone of influence is 300 feet.
Now I start doing actual enforcement. I observe vehicles and estimate their speed. The procedure is that we visually estimate a vehicle's speed then confirm that estimate with the radar. Part of the standard testimony we use in NYC is "I visually estimated the motorist's vehicle speed to be 55 miles per hour at a distance of approximately 500 feet. As the motorist's vehicle entered my zone of influence my radar set indicated with an audible tone that it had acquired a target vehicle and I then pressed the lock button on my set to lock that speed reading into my set's display - at the time I did this the motorist's vehicle was the only one in my zone of influence".
Well, in your case that's not true since the truck was in front of you. Yes, there are ways around all of this but I'm guessing an NYPD officer pretty much just goes by what they were taught during radar class at the Highway District - and that's how they are trained.
So if she used radar you can use that basis to raise a doubt and possibly win at a TVB hearing.
Of course, if she used lidar you are SOL - the above doesn't apply with lidar at all (except for the speed estimation part). There is no zone of influence since the lidar can be directed at specific vehicle - radar can't.
Sorry to get into such much detail - maybe it's too much - but there you go. Any questions just ask.
If it was radar that was used, the judges in the TVB like to hear that your vehicle was the only one in the radar set's "zone of influence".
Zone of influence isn't really a range setting it's a sensitivity setting. There is no way to control the range of the radar - once the beam is transmitted that's it. However, we can simulate a range by having the set ignore returns that are below a certain strength. So, typically the sensitivity setting is on a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being least sensitive and 5 being most sensitive.
What the officer is supposed to do is verify out on the street what the effective zone of influence is for the particular sensitivity setting - it can vary based on weather, temperature, etc.
So I setup in my spot with my radar and turn it on. I set the sensitivity to "2" and I observe traffic approaching me. I see about how close a vehicle gets to me before it generates a target reading on my radar set. Let's say it's 300 feet. So during that enforcement period my zone of influence is 300 feet.
Now I start doing actual enforcement. I observe vehicles and estimate their speed. The procedure is that we visually estimate a vehicle's speed then confirm that estimate with the radar. Part of the standard testimony we use in NYC is "I visually estimated the motorist's vehicle speed to be 55 miles per hour at a distance of approximately 500 feet. As the motorist's vehicle entered my zone of influence my radar set indicated with an audible tone that it had acquired a target vehicle and I then pressed the lock button on my set to lock that speed reading into my set's display - at the time I did this the motorist's vehicle was the only one in my zone of influence".
Well, in your case that's not true since the truck was in front of you. Yes, there are ways around all of this but I'm guessing an NYPD officer pretty much just goes by what they were taught during radar class at the Highway District - and that's how they are trained.
So if she used radar you can use that basis to raise a doubt and possibly win at a TVB hearing.
Of course, if she used lidar you are SOL - the above doesn't apply with lidar at all (except for the speed estimation part). There is no zone of influence since the lidar can be directed at specific vehicle - radar can't.
Sorry to get into such much detail - maybe it's too much - but there you go. Any questions just ask.
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