Is there enough for change of circumstance here?

[Gwenillian]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? WI

I have posted previously about some issues my youngest (12) was having in school & you all were great help esp. OG. Thank you. I can't find that thread now that things changed so I'm going to do a brief recap.

I am the CP (with about 75-80%). We share legal custody.

DS12 failed two quarters of school. After an at length discussion with dad, dad finally agreed to let him move in Feb. from the private school to my local public. Grades are up from all failing to C's, a B & an A but he may need summer school due to the first two quarters' grades.

Now for the new stuff:

Shortly after the school move & for about 2 months DS12 had some bad behavior. He was acting out by throwing major temper tantrums, and doing things against the rules - lying, stealing things such as sweets (here) & money from his younger brother (dad's), etc. This happened on & off at both homes, but since I have the large majority of the placement time, primarily in mine. 5 wks ago he ran off from a store we were at & an officer was called because we didn't know where he was. He came back about 5-10 min before the officer's arrival, rec'd lecture from the officer & hasn't had any incidents at my home since. There have been minor incidents at dad's, but nothing here. Dad was informed when each incident happened & did nothing & also did not state any disagreement at that time with how it was handled. I was recently asked if I thought his therapy was working & whether there had been any more incidents here.

DS12 has shown a marked improvement in his everyday behavior over the past 5 weeks. He continues to see his therapist.

DS13 wants to transfer schools now as well because he sees how much his brother likes it there; plus he is bored at the private school & wants more coursework & extracurriculars. I emailed dad & was told essentially "we want him to attend our school & live with us primarily" (no comment on wanting both, just oldest). Then I was asked "Will you work with us on this or should we file for mediation" (this is the first step in custody battle as mandated by the state).

I want to know is there a change of circumstance that warrants a placement change? Obviously DS12's behavior was bad, but it was not something that solely happened here. Additionally, it was directly after the school transfer & I believe was directly related to that change. Finally, it has ceased to be a problem now that he's acclimated to his new school & has seen that the behavior isn't going to get him anywhere. If dad thought it was a problem which required a change of placement shouldn't he have filed at that time?

I'm assuming that the fact that DS13 wants to switch schools does not constitute a coc, am I correct? The only arguments I've been given thus far for a switch in placement are: 1. the 13 yr old wants the switch (I only hear him say this when he has chores or can't have something) & 2. they have a bigger high school & therefore he'll have more opportunity for college scholarships (but he's going into 8th grade & the test scores & rankings are almost the same between districts anyway).

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? WI

I have posted previously about some issues my youngest (12) was having in school & you all were great help esp. OG. Thank you. I can't find that thread now that things changed so I'm going to do a brief recap.

I am the CP (with about 75-80%). We share legal custody.

DS12 failed two quarters of school. After an at length discussion with dad, dad finally agreed to let him move in Feb. from the private school to my local public. Grades are up from all failing to C's, a B & an A but he may need summer school due to the first two quarters' grades.

Now for the new stuff:

Shortly after the school move & for about 2 months DS12 had some bad behavior. He was acting out by throwing major temper tantrums, and doing things against the rules - lying, stealing things such as sweets (here) & money from his younger brother (dad's), etc. This happened on & off at both homes, but since I have the large majority of the placement time, primarily in mine. 5 wks ago he ran off from a store we were at & an officer was called because we didn't know where he was. He came back about 5-10 min before the officer's arrival, rec'd lecture from the officer & hasn't had any incidents at my home since. There have been minor incidents at dad's, but nothing here. Dad was informed when each incident happened & did nothing & also did not state any disagreement at that time with how it was handled. I was recently asked if I thought his therapy was working & whether there had been any more incidents here.

DS12 has shown a marked improvement in his everyday behavior over the past 5 weeks. He continues to see his therapist.

DS13 wants to transfer schools now as well because he sees how much his brother likes it there; plus he is bored at the private school & wants more coursework & extracurriculars. I emailed dad & was told essentially "we want him to attend our school & live with us primarily" (no comment on wanting both, just oldest). Then I was asked "Will you work with us on this or should we file for mediation" (this is the first step in custody battle as mandated by the state).

I want to know is there a change of circumstance that warrants a placement change? Obviously DS12's behavior was bad, but it was not something that solely happened here. Additionally, it was directly after the school transfer & I believe was directly related to that change. Finally, it has ceased to be a problem now that he's acclimated to his new school & has seen that the behavior isn't going to get him anywhere. If dad thought it was a problem which required a change of placement shouldn't he have filed at that time?

I'm assuming that the fact that DS13 wants to switch schools does not constitute a coc, am I correct? The only arguments I've been given thus far for a switch in placement are: 1. the 13 yr old wants the switch (I only hear him say this when he has chores or can't have something) & 2. they have a bigger high school & therefore he'll have more opportunity for college scholarships (but he's going into 8th grade & the test scores & rankings are almost the same between districts anyway).

A change of schools when you both you have legal custody is a substantial change in circumstance. Why do you believe you automatically get to dictate that the child will go to public school in YOUR area?

Dad has just as much right as having the child go to school in his area. Go into this with a conversation at mediation about all the positives and negatives of both ideas and NOT presumptions about the fact that child should AUTOMATICALLY go to public school where you live. Right now you are approaching this with the assumption that child's change of schools is automatically to YOUR school district. That is not necessarily automatic.

 

[stealth2]

they have a bigger high school & therefore he'll have more opportunity for college scholarships (but he's going into 8th grade

That's not necessarily true. My oldest went to a large HS (~300 in his graduating HS), my youngest to a small one (54 in hers). The latter actually has greater opportunities for scholarships.

 

[Gwenillian]

A change of schools when you both you have legal custody is a substantial change in circumstance. Why do you believe you automatically get to dictate that the child will go to public school in YOUR area?

Dad has just as much right as having the child go to school in his area. Go into this with a conversation at mediation about all the positives and negatives of both ideas and NOT presumptions about the fact that child should AUTOMATICALLY go to public school where you live. Right now you are approaching this with the assumption that child's change of schools is automatically to YOUR school district. That is not necessarily automatic.

Thank you for your response. I understand & will try to change my train of thought on that although I am having problems coming up with pros of going there other than their reason "it's bigger". He doesn't even have friends in that town. I'm willing to listen to other reasons though... I've been doing research on it for days trying to figure out if there was anything to the claim that it would be vital for him to receive scholarships.

In case it is relevant, the reasons I was assuming he could go to our district are 1. dad lives over an hour away therefore the entire placement arrangement would need to change from my being primary to him being primary, 2. youngest already has been approved by dad to attend my school system, and 3. I didn't think that changing a school would be a reason to completely upend the kid(s) as I also thought courts tended to be reluctant to make big changes in placement like that unless it was something pretty major.

I proposed he go to my district with his brother, I didn't demand or dictate anything. He is the one who considers his school district to be the only one that is acceptable - per multiple emails over a period of 4 years. No steps have been taken to change anything other than my asking dad if this change would be something he is ok with & getting a response of essentially "do what I want or I'll take you back to court again". I also offered to put him in the better school system across the street for H.S. (I can't for next year since open enrollment is already over). That school system is much better (per test scores, teacher/student ratio & state-wide rankings) than either of the other two, is an equivalent distance away & is about the same size as dad's.

What about when kids go from middle school to high school - would that be a reason to change placement as well? The school he's in now only goes through 8th grade so next year he is going to have to switch anyway - why should his living arrangements change? How would this benefit him (or both kids if they even want both - which right now it doesn't look like they do)? How likely do you think it is that he would win primary placement based on the fact that his school is bigger? Given the similar test scores this & maybe more clubs(?) are the only things I can think of that would make their district better than ours...

Should I also take your response to mean that the previous things with youngest will have little to no bearing at this point?

 

[Gwenillian]

That's not necessarily true. My oldest went to a large HS (~300 in his graduating HS), my youngest to a small one (54 in hers). The latter actually has greater opportunities for scholarships.

That's kind of what I thought.... those are dad's reasons for wanting a change of placement. I don't think I was very clear in my first post. My district is small, but has equivalent test scores & ratings to their much larger one. Also I know they have a good guidance counselor who helps the kids find local scholarships, etc...

 

[Ohiogal]

Thank you for your response. I understand & will try to change my train of thought on that although I am having problems coming up with pros of going there other than their reason "it's bigger". He doesn't even have friends in that town. I'm willing to listen to other reasons though... I've been doing research on it for days trying to figure out if there was anything to the claim that it would be vital for him to receive scholarships.

Listen to the reasons. There is nothing necessary with that claim. HOWEVER, some cities/areas guarantee a college education to graduates who meet certain criteria. Maybe there is a program like that in one of the school districts that could be beneficial -- yours or his.

In case it is relevant, the reasons I was assuming he could go to our district are 1. dad lives over an hour away therefore the entire placement arrangement would need to change from my being primary to him being primary, 2. youngest already has been approved by dad to attend my school system, and 3. I didn't think that changing a school would be a reason to completely upend the kid(s) as I also thought courts tended to be reluctant to make big changes in placement like that unless it was something pretty major.

Well you can't change school without dad's agreement. But the other things are positives for you to put the older one in public school -- at the start of next school year.

I proposed he go to my district with his brother, I didn't demand or dictate anything. He is the one who considers his school district to be the only one that is acceptable - per multiple emails over a period of 4 years. No steps have been taken to change anything other than my asking dad if this change would be something he is ok with & getting a response of essentially "do what I want or I'll take you back to court again". I also offered to put him in the better school system across the street for H.S. (I can't for next year since open enrollment is already over). That school system is much better (per test scores, teacher/student ratio & state-wide rankings) than either of the other two, is an equivalent distance away & is about the same size as dad's.

Okay then. That is better. But just be careful about the assumptions and presumptions. Which was my point.

What about when kids go from middle school to high school - would that be a reason to change placement as well?

Not if it is in the same district and same type (public to public or private to private).

The school he's in now only goes through 8th grade so next year he is going to have to switch anyway - why should his living arrangements change? How would this benefit him (or both kids if they even want both - which right now it doesn't look like they do)? How likely do you think it is that he would win primary placement based on the fact that his school is bigger? Given the similar test scores this & maybe more clubs(?) are the only things I can think of that would make their district better than ours...

And those are your strengths for having your child go to public in your area. However the child was in private school and you want to change to public -- that is a difference. Maybe dad was agreeable to the private school but if not for that the child should have lived with him. You are better at your explanation here than you were in your first post. Keep pointing out the strengths of your school district versus dad's and the strengths of your plan versus dad's.

Should I also take your response to mean that the previous things with youngest will have little to no bearing at this point?

Two different children. Two different ideas.

 

[Gwenillian]

Listen to the reasons. There is nothing necessary with that claim. HOWEVER, some cities/areas guarantee a college education to graduates who meet certain criteria. Maybe there is a program like that in one of the school districts that could be beneficial -- yours or his.

I'm not sure what this is, but I do know that if DS goes past the curriculum at my local school he can take classes at college for free until he would graduate from H.S.. I will check into what you've said here to see if it applies at either district though - thanks!

Well you can't change school without dad's agreement. But the other things are positives for you to put the older one in public school -- at the start of next school year.

Ok. Thank you. Next year is the soonest we would do this anyway.

Okay then. That is better. But just be careful about the assumptions and presumptions. Which was my point.

Got it. Thank you.

Not if it is in the same district and same type (public to public or private to private).

Oh - good. Otherwise I'd be back here in a year I'm sure. Thank you.

And those are your strengths for having your child go to public in your area. However the child was in private school and you want to change to public -- that is a difference. Maybe dad was agreeable to the private school but if not for that the child should have lived with him. You are better at your explanation here than you were in your first post. Keep pointing out the strengths of your school district versus dad's and the strengths of your plan versus dad's.

Actually, dad for the past 4 years has ranted about not wanting them in private school while simultaneously refusing to allow me to put them in any public school besides his own - via email. He has refused to sign registration forms every single year stating his disagreement with having them in the private school; but due to the most recent CO stating that this private school was ok the school let them attend anyway. He has stated in his most recent email that he also doesn't want DS to attend the current private school next year. Pretty much he has already stated - numerous times - that he wants a change of placement. The school is just the reason he is using this time (since his reason 4 yrs ago didn't work & I didn't just go ahead & agree when he tried the "but the 13 yr old wants it" reason a few months ago). If there was an actual reason it would be better for both DSs (I don't think it would be best to separate them), I would in fact be open to a change in placement - but dad hasn't given me one yet.

Sorry about my first post not being clear. I was really tired & not firing on all cylinders.

Two different children. Two different ideas.

Thank you again for all your help.

 

[Gwenillian]

Ok, so it looks like they are going to try to use the behavior 5+ wks ago as the change of circumstance for younger DS & the possible school change (only asked them about it, not demanding or doing anything yet) as the Coc for oldest DS.

Does the behavior rise to the level of a COC if it's been a while & nothing further has happened & they didn't think it was a big enough deal to do anything about at the time?

 

[LdiJ]

Ok, so it looks like they are going to try to use the behavior 5+ wks ago as the change of circumstance for younger DS & the possible school change (only asked them about it, not demanding or doing anything yet) as the Coc for oldest DS.

Does the behavior rise to the level of a COC if it's been a while & nothing further has happened & they didn't think it was a big enough deal to do anything about at the time?

The behavior was recent enough that it would probably be considered a valid change in circumstance, but you can definitely counteract that by demonstrating that the behavior was temporary and that he is on track now. The possible school change for the oldest would NOT be a change in circumstance in my opinion.

 

[Gwenillian]

The behavior was recent enough that it would probably be considered a valid change in circumstance, but you can definitely counteract that by demonstrating that the behavior was temporary and that he is on track now. The possible school change for the oldest would NOT be a change in circumstance in my opinion.

Thank you. How much time do you think would need to pass for it to no longer be considered?

 

[stealth2]

Thank you. How much time do you think would need to pass for it to no longer be considered?

I would expect AT LEAST a year, if not longer.

 

[Zigner]

I feel the need to say that I really am impressed with the way this OP comes across. Not combative or defensive...awesome.

 

[Gwenillian]

I feel the need to say that I really am impressed with the way this OP comes across. Not combative or defensive...awesome.

Thank you! I'm learning...

 

[Gwenillian]

I would expect AT LEAST a year, if not longer.

Ok. Does it matter that it was short lived, and started right after he switched schools mid-year (dad approved & therapist suggested)? I think he was mostly acting out but... well, I'm not a doctor so...

 

[Gwenillian]

I'm hoping I'm correct in adding this to my previous post since it's somewhat to do with the same topic.

Ex & I have not agreed on a change of school at this time, so DS is going to continue attending the school that is approved in the current CO. However, next year he goes to HS & since this school does not have a HS obviously he has to go somewhere else. We are currently working on where this will be, but in my opinion it is unlikely to be resolved without a judge. Given our history & the current conversation, this will eventually go to court because Dad is already demanding a full change in placement because "he wants to have the kids and the kids want to live with him" (that is a direct quote). I am still holding out hope that we can work this decision out on our own but I find it doubtful.

Is it appropriate for me to discuss what things DS might be interested in having at a HS in order to help his father & I come to a decision about which HS he should attend of the 5 HS's we have between our immediate areas. I live on the border of 3 - one of which is my district, Dad lives in a different district & there is a private high school also in the area (DS has previously always attended private school although his younger brother now attends in my local district with Dad's permission). By interests I specifically mean what is offered by the various schools such as extracurriculars, clubs, classwork, school size, etc...

My thinking is that my parents discussed this with me when I got to this age & they were choosing my HS so I thought it might be a good idea to include his 'want list' in our planning. I also have no intention of making it be a "Mom's school is better than Dad's school" kind of conversation as I don't really want to stress him out. I actually would prefer to leave Dad's school out of the conversation altogether because if I even bring it up, DS is very likely to infer that it is a choice between Mom & Dad - which it really is not because we (or the judge) will be making all the decisions. I can leave out the names of all the schools, but that would not help if he really wants to go where particular friends are going (he doesn't know anyone at all at Dad's school other than his stepsibling whom he does not get along with). Although, I guess I could just let him bring up the friends issue if it's important enough to him?

Again, I do not mean at all to imply that DS will choose - Dad & I or a judge will choose. I just know that talking about placement arrangements with the kids is obviously bad & before I have this conversation I want to make sure that it isn't completely inappropriate.

My next question is how soon can we actually file to go back to mediation/court? The school is currently staying the same. The significant change will come when DS has to go to HS which is about a year away. When do you think the soonest I can expect the court to allow a hearing/mediation appointment on this is? If possible, I would like to know what I can expect so I can plan accordingly.

Thank you all for all your help again!