Is this violation of orders/putting child in middle?

[TRS0430]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ca

There is a BUNCH of orders my ex has broken, so I am not nitpickin here. But one of the orders says, "neither parent will discussion any element of visitation with the children". Our kids are in their mid teens. Our meeting place and time for pick up and drop offs changes a lot for various reasons. However my ex absolutely refuses to speak to me, blocked my email, does not even text message with me and is CONSTANTLY making the kids be the go between. My ex makes our kids call me or tell me where and when my ex wants to get them and do any other needed cordination for their clothing and stuff for the visits with my ex. I am thinking about bringing some sort of an enforcement of orders motion or contempt.... but I am wondering if this should be included as a violation of court orders. I am also wondering if this is called putting the kids in the middle. I keep on protesting to my kids and my ex about it, but it seems to fall on deaf ears so I am the only one throwing a fit about it and wondering if I am out of line? Also my kids cooperate with it because my ex tells them how much he hates me and because there have been some incidents at the pick up and drop offs where my ex told the kids the reason he did what he did is because he cant stand to speak to me or see my phone number on his phone. There used to be a lot of domestic violence when I lived at home and the kids do it to protect me.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ca

There is a BUNCH of orders my ex has broken, so I am not nitpickin here. But one of the orders says, "neither parent will discussion any element of visitation with the children". Our kids are in their mid teens. Our meeting place and time for pick up and drop offs changes a lot for various reasons. However my ex absolutely refuses to speak to me, blocked my email, does not even text message with me and is CONSTANTLY making the kids be the go between. My ex makes our kids call me or tell me where and when my ex wants to get them and do any other needed cordination for their clothing and stuff for the visits with my ex. I am thinking about bringing some sort of an enforcement of orders motion or contempt.... but I am wondering if this should be included as a violation of court orders. I am also wondering if this is called putting the kids in the middle. I keep on protesting to my kids and my ex about it, but it seems to fall on deaf ears so I am the only one throwing a fit about it and wondering if I am out of line? Also my kids cooperate with it because my ex tells them how much he hates me and because there have been some incidents at the pick up and drop offs where my ex told the kids the reason he did what he did is because he cant stand to speak to me or see my phone number on his phone. There used to be a lot of domestic violence when I lived at home and the kids do it to protect me.

Well, he is violating one of the provisionsof the court order, so yes, he is in contempt. What else is he violating?

However, at the same time, when kids become teenagers, particularly 15-17 they do kind of tend to "manage" their own schedule, and would tend to want to protect a parent that they feel is being abused.

 

[Isis1]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ca

There is a BUNCH of orders my ex has broken, so I am not nitpickin here. But one of the orders says, "neither parent will discussion any element of visitation with the children". Our kids are in their mid teens. Our meeting place and time for pick up and drop offs changes a lot for various reasons. However my ex absolutely refuses to speak to me, blocked my email, does not even text message with me and is CONSTANTLY making the kids be the go between. My ex makes our kids call me or tell me where and when my ex wants to get them and do any other needed cordination for their clothing and stuff for the visits with my ex. I am thinking about bringing some sort of an enforcement of orders motion or contempt.... but I am wondering if this should be included as a violation of court orders. I am also wondering if this is called putting the kids in the middle. I keep on protesting to my kids and my ex about it, but it seems to fall on deaf ears so I am the only one throwing a fit about it and wondering if I am out of line?

this is one of the harder parts of violation of court order to actually prove. just because you say so, doesn't make it a fact. you can't pump the children for information, nor bring them in as witnesses. unless of course dad admits to it in court.

my suggestion, is more of a parenting issue. when the children tell you of these things, don't ask for clarification, don't further the conversation. nod, your head, acknowledge you heard them and move the conversation. i wrote a letter to the NCP in my situation. I informed him that any information received via the children be it verbally or handwritten will be ignored. all communications must be in writing via mail or over the phone in a private conversation. it took a few times for him to get it, but it worked.

don't throw a fit about it. show no emotion over it.

 

[TRS0430]

He is violating almost every single order and it is too much to get into here. This is one that I have questioned though if it is only me who is bothered by this. And my kids cooperate because they feel they are protecting me and they dont seem to think it is a big deal UNTIL things like last week happened.... what happened was that I insisted on meeting at a police station because of something that had happened at the prior drop off. But my ex made one of the kids call me to tell me it was okay and I insisted on getting it in writing from my ex and my ex refused so I went with the court orders for the drop off and pick up. There ended up being confussion and my kids came home very upset with me because of the confussion and did not understand why I would not just meet at the police station. I refused to answer and told them to ask me when they are 18. However they persisted for 2 days and thought I was totally unreasonable, finally I was backed into a corner and had to tell them that my ex had lied many times about what was "said" and if I did not have it in writing that I just could not do anything other than the court order... they accepted this answer and did not ask me anymore questions about it again (they both know he is a liar and remember a bunch of stuff that happened when they were younger and have caught my ex in many lies themselves). I do NOT communicate with my ex at all UNLESS there is a written record of what was said. He did block my email but we still text (mostly me though and mostly he passes messages through the children as of this month... before this month he was texting me too) As far as my kids statements I have started to record what they say after visits with him and make sure I am following my state recording laws when I do it.

 

[stealth2]

I keep on protesting to my kids

However they persisted for 2 days and thought I was totally unreasonable, finally I was backed into a corner and had to tell them that my ex had lied many times about what was "said" and if I did not have it in writing that I just could not do anything other than the court order...

<snip>

I do NOT communicate with my ex at all UNLESS there is a written record of what was said. He did block my email but we still text (mostly me though and mostly he passes messages through the children as of this month... before this month he was texting me too) As far as my kids statements I have started to record what they say after visits with him and make sure I am following my state recording laws when I do it.

Honestly, it doesn't sound as though your hands are all that clean wrt conversations with the kids, either.

BOTH of you need to knock it off.

 

[TRS0430]

My hands are not that clean anymore... they used to be, but not now. I felt terrible about having to tell them this, but I was backed into a corner. This particular incident was brought up at least a dozen times in 2 days without me explaining ANYTHING and the kids were getting madder and madder. My son was crying on the way to school because he did not understand and I refused to explain it to him, that was when I finally broke down. As far as the recording, is that wrong? How else do you prove the effects on the kids in a situation like this? They have refused counseling because their dad says they will be put on meds and it is for crazy people and I have not made a response to that or 100 other crazy things he tells them.

 

[stealth2]

My hands are not that clean anymore... they used to be, but not now. I felt terrible about having to tell them this, but I was backed into a corner. This particular incident was brought up at least a dozen times in 2 days without me explaining ANYTHING and the kids were getting madder and madder. My son was crying on the way to school because he did not understand and I refused to explain it to him, that was when I finally broke down.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree that you HAD to tell them anything. I am in a similar situation and my standard response to my teens is - and always has been - "This is a situation for your Dad and I to resolve. Don't worry - we will, and everything will be okay. So, tell me about what you're doing in English at the moment..."

As far as the recording, is that wrong? How else do you prove the effects on the kids in a situation like this? They have refused counseling because their dad says they will be put on meds and it is for crazy people and I have not made a response to that or 100 other crazy things he tells them.

All I can tell you is that CA is a two-party state. So everyone being taped needs to consent. HOWEVER, most judges will have an issue with one parent taping the kids to use against the other parent.

As for how to help the kids? Have you suggested that they talk to their school guidance counselor? That's a pretty good, neutral resource.

 

[BL]

I do NOT communicate with my ex at all UNLESS there is a written record of what was said

How old were the children when the order to not put them in the middle was entered into records .

Reality is your X can't stand you , and a Judge is NOT going to take rights away .

Your X agreed to meet at a police station , and you wanted a signed statement ?

Get real .

My X tried pulling that on me when She was ordered to produce the child or go to jail .

Plus your recordings don't mean diddly , unless there's a court order instructing you to do it .

Quit thinking about " Me ME " , and think about the children , and keep things simple .

You are nit picking by the way .

 

[TRS0430]

I appreciate your honesty in telling me I was wrong. And yes, I know the recording laws say it has to be a public place where it could be easily overheard and/or a 3rd party to the conversation. I am sorry to learn that judges dont like this and therefore will not bring it up and into evidence. and yes, I have spoken myself with the school counselor who has called my kids (especially my son) into his office to talk but they refuse to talk about anything and hate it.

Something I have not mentioned here is that they were on supervised visitation only with their dad for about 4 years until about a year ago. The reason was because of child abuse when they were younger and they refused to see him otherwise. Now that they are older their dad went to court and refused to see them any longer with a supervisor and the kids agreed so that they could get to know him again as older kids. All of the professionals who worked on this case have now been taken off because the trial period of unsupervised visits reportedly went well. Since the professionals have been taken off though a lot of bad stuff began happening a couple months ago and my ex stopped following court orders and a bunch of garbage.

 

[TRS0430]

To BL:

The kids are 14 and 15. The order just went into effect a couple of months ago. I was not asking for a signed statement, I was asking for a text message as my ex will not even accept certified letters. But yes, the history of our case justifies this. and it was NOT me who had the children and was giving them to him for visitation.. it was HE who was returning them to me when the police station incident happened. I am not just thinking about "me me", but I am thinking about my family unit, honestly.

 

[mommyof4]

How old are the children? (sorry if I missed it)

I'm just wondering how it is that your children have so much power in this relationship to 'force' you to tell them anything that is none of their business and to refuse to attend counseling when you feel it is in their best interest. (for what it's worth, counseling DOES seem to be in their best interest, if for nothing else to deal with their feelings of responsibility when it comes to your protection.)

ah, you answered my question as I was typing.

Okay, first and foremost, you need to take control of yourself and your kids. If you want them in counseling, you put them in counseling. They may not talk, but at least it is something.

If you don't want to talk about something, your kids have no right to bully you into talking. Put your foot down. If they keep badgering you, send them to their rooms until they can remember that YOU are the adult and that YOU hold all of the power in your little family unit.

My 13 year old got a bit mouthy the other day and was put out that I wouldn't continue a conversation with her (she was bugging the crap out of me). She decided that "What is your problem?!?" was an appropriate response. She learned very quickly that if I say the end, that's the end. I (once again) told her that until she could show me the respect deserved, the only responses I needed out of her were polite, truthful answers to my questions, yes ma'am, no ma'am, and thank you. Until she could conduct herself in an appropriate manner, she could sit her high and mighty fanny in her room. An hour later, she came down stairs, apologized (which I graciously accepted), we had a nice long talk (and yes, because she recognized and corrected her behavior, she got to do what she was wanting to do), and she has been an absolute delight for the past 2 weeks. I suspect that we will repeat this little scenario a few more times before she goes to college, and then there are the other 3 coming right behind her. Oh well...such is life as a mother.

 

[TRS0430]

mommy:

they are 14 and 15. It was my son especially who was so upset and just would not leave the subject alone and on the way to school began even crying because he just did not understand and his dad told him I was crazy and filled his head up with a bunch of garbage and he was terribly confused and angry. In order to calm him down and give him something he could understand I finally felt I had to tell him. And this did work, ever since he has not questioned me about it and he stopped crying when I told him. He is very bright in many ways and very analytical and needed something he could understand. As for the counseling, I have made appointments for him, contacted his old counselor at the women's shelter who sent a counselor to the school, and his school counselor has called him into the office on a couple of occassions..... but although he goes he refuses to talk. My other child is a take it or leave it type when it comes to her father, but also refuses to speak with anyone outside of myself about the issues. When they were younger at first they spoke about the abuse but when my ex was questioned about the abuse (before protective orders went into effect) they suddenly stopped because he scared them when he had been questioned and they shut up. Ever since then it has been hard to get them to talk...... even now.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

I also have court order that says children will NOT be talked to about what are in the court orders. I too am getting ready to file for "contempt of court".

Do NOT record the children since you cannot use that in court. Keep a journal. If you have text messages, find a way to get those transcribed. If you have credible emails, include those.

Document, document, document.

When I heard the stuff that came out of my child's mouth, all I could do was bite my tongue becuase **I** was going to go in with clean hands. It stinks to take the high road, but it will go better for you if you do.

 

[Isis1]

mommy:

they are 14 and 15. It was my son especially who was so upset and just would not leave the subject alone and on the way to school began even crying because he just did not understand and his dad told him I was crazy and filled his head up with a bunch of garbage and he was terribly confused and angry. In order to calm him down and give him something he could understand I finally felt I had to tell him. And this did work, ever since he has not questioned me about it and he stopped crying when I told him. He is very bright in many ways and very analytical and needed something he could understand. As for the counseling, I have made appointments for him, contacted his old counselor at the women's shelter who sent a counselor to the school, and his school counselor has called him into the office on a couple of occassions..... but although he goes he refuses to talk. My other child is a take it or leave it type when it comes to her father, but also refuses to speak with anyone outside of myself about the issues. When they were younger at first they spoke about the abuse but when my ex was questioned about the abuse (before protective orders went into effect) they suddenly stopped because he scared them when he had been questioned and they shut up. Ever since then it has been hard to get them to talk...... even now.

what about staring counseling WITH them, then once both are comfortable you can phase yourself out. start this off as a mommy and children session. on how to improve your relationship with them, leaving dad out of the picture for starters. then if they bring dad up when you are not there, that's for them.

my 10 year old started counseling last month. he doesn't want to go. he thinks it's a waste of time when he could be doing his homework instead. i walk him to the door at every appointment. he doesn't have the option to say no. counseling takes time. it's never an immediate result. it can take up to a year sometimes. sometimes a change in counselor is needed.

 

[TRS0430]

Ginny:

I have been going through divorce/custody/visitation/support for about 10 years now. Sometimes, like now, because of financial issues I have been pro per. I have always kept a journal but it is only hearsay, I use it for reference when preparing court papers. ALL my communication with my ex is done in writing I refuse anyother way as in a trial years ago he used a voice changer and submitted it as evidence of phone recording messages left of my children and he spliced and diced some of my own phone messages to have me saying things I did not say. Additionally he lies continually and I find myself having to prove the stupidest things many times. I have emails and text messages. He refuses certified letters from me, so there is no communication through the mail.

Isabella:

I have searched every resourse I can find to get my kids (especially my son) into group therapy. There is currently only one group in our area and that is for kids a lot younger. As far as the counseling goes, in the last orders the judge gave my ex joint legal custody and my ex refuses to allow it. The judge abused his discretion in including this part in our order and my case is currently on appeal about this matter. However, like I said earlier I am preparing papers to complain about my ex not following court orders and these papers are probably going to be for a stay on the orders while the appeal is pending and I am thinking about going to court when i ask for the stay with all the proof I have of the recent abuse at the pick ups and drop offs (which I can prove completely outside of my kids as there were multiple credible witnesses), as well as proof of all the other orders he has not followed.