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It's time for college....

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BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
vlada said:
I guess, you can do some research of this "crap" by yourself. So as a definition of emancipation.
In other words, you KNOW you are talking out of your ass.

Well, for your information, this is a UTAH case. But, even so, the age of emancipation is NOT a direct corrollary to the parents (both CP AND NCP) being required to pay for college. Some states do not require it, others do and still others leave it to the discretion of the judge and the divorcing parties.

In other words, you have no idea of what you speak.
 


stealth2

Under the Radar Member
vlada said:
state PA

So, you've made expensive plans for the "princess" without her farther's input, but counting on his paycheck. Funny!
Supreme Cout ruled that it would be a discrimination for a divorced farther to be liable for emancipated child's education b/c married parents are not obligated to provide college education for their children.
I suppose the farther been paying child support and other stuff for many years, and he is done with his duties now. You shoud've saved some of it.
Someone's getting farther and farther away......
 

vlada

Member
BelizeBreeze said:
In other words, you KNOW you are talking out of your ass.

Well, for your information, this is a UTAH case. But, even so, the age of emancipation is NOT a direct corrollary to the parents (both CP AND NCP) being required to pay for college. Some states do not require it, others do and still others leave it to the discretion of the judge and the divorcing parties.

In other words, you have no idea of what you speak.
I speak for my state, and thank God that's what it is here. Evidently, you don't like such decision. Too bad.
 

nextwife

Senior Member
Although, it DOES seem that stepdad and mom have helped make college plans without dad's input.

How much has dad been involved in the process of college search and selection?

And, as to the "proportional income" aspect, say YOU were NCP and your ex had taken years off their careers, was only working part time, or not at all to stay home under the roof of her new hubby, and was therefore earning far less than she is capable of? Maybe not even earning a full time income? Plenty of woman CHOOSE not to push their careers forward. That is their choice, but they should not THEN use their voluntarily lower salaries to more heavily burden the other parent financially as to college costs?

Plenty of women make salaries somewhat comparable to their hubbies, or more. Many of those that don't, made LIFE CHOICES to not REALLY work at their careers. If a woman CHOOSES to detour away from a decent salary, that should NOT mean she should use that reality to try to make the other parent take on way more cost of college.

Poster, I disagree about the "proportionate income" part of YOUR agreement for the above reasons. I don't know your wife's situation, but if her proportionately lower income is due to her choices, especially after marrying you, to either work less, not work, or work at a far less demanding position because you were providing for her, that should not be held against dad financially, as that was MOM'S choice.

I agree with Breezy. 33% to each parent, kiddo pays 34% and you're done.
 
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BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
vlada said:
I speak for my state, and thank God that's what it is here. Evidently, you don't like such decision. Too bad.
Really? Then I know you're full of crap. Or I guess you've never read Bolton v. Bolton, 21 Fam. L. Rep. (BNA) 1307 (Pa. Super. Ct. 1995).

PENNSYLVANIA: Bolton v. Bolton, 21 Fam. L. Rep. (BNA) 1307 (Pa. Super. Ct. 1995).

Pennsylvania provides, by statute, that a court may order parents to help pay for their adult children's college education. 23 Pa. C.S. § 4327 (overruling Blue v. Blue, 532 Pa. 521, 616 A.2d 628 (1992)). The calculation of support under this statute, however, cannot be pursuant to the state's child support guidelines. Rather, the court undertakes an independent determination as to the actual cost of tuition, room and board, and other necessary education expenses.

The court explained that when determining the support of minor children, the court applies the child support guidelines which have been formulated to reflect what parents of a particular income level would reasonably be expected to spend in support of their minor children. The college support statute, on the other hand, authorizes courts to order parents to contribute toward their children's undergraduate degree, a narrow and specific set of costs that can be precisely and easily documented. Thus, the application of support guidelines to college education costs is error. Bolton v. Bolton, 21 Fam. L. Rep. (BNA) 1307 (Pa. Super. Ct. 1995).
 

nextwife

Senior Member
But Breezy, has ANY US court, anywhere, EVER ordered still-married,not divorcing parents to pay for their kid's college education?
 
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BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
nextwife said:
But Breezy, has US ANY court, anywhere, EVER ordered still-married,not divorcing parents to pay for their kid's college education?
That is NOT what this idiot said.

Supreme Cout ruled that it would be a discrimination for a divorced farther to be liable for emancipated child's education b/c married parents are not obligated to provide college education for their children.
I suppose the farther been paying child support and other stuff for many years, and he is done with his duties now. You shoud've saved some of it.
and this crap
I speak for my state, and thank God that's what it is here. Evidently, you don't like such decision. Too bad.
We need another idiot like we need another troll...come to think of it, we have a two-for-one here.
 

nextwife

Senior Member
That wasn't why I asked, hon. I'm just curious.

Seems that no matter what the financial circumstances of the bioparents may be, the courts have never held that the adult child of still-married parents is entitled to have those parents pay for college - and have never (that I know of) enforced the right of a biological child to recieve college cost from their parents if the parents remain married.
 

BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
nextwife said:
That wasn't why I asked, hon. I'm just curious.

Seems that no matter what the financial circumstances of the bioparents may be, the courts have never held that the adult child of still-married parents is entitled to have those parents pay for college - and have never (that I know of) enforced the right of a biological child to recieve college cost from their parents if the parents remain married.
Of course not. But in intact families the court has no legal standing to interfer. In divorced family situations, the court is the mediator, NOT the adjudicator.
 
Return To Sender

dc:

As far as item 4(b) is concerned, I think dad could save some bucks if you and mom just continue breastfeeding CCC and forget about the "meal plan".

If I were the dad on the receiving end of this document, I'd send it back and have you use it for TP. Or maybe CCC could recycle it and use it for rollin' papers when she's admitted to UC Berkley.

4(c) "In the event that CCC cannot find a part time job"...What? Aren't you going to go out there and find a job for her? At least drive her to a few interviews?

Item 5. That's a good one. How does dad feel about communication and transportation? He's been payin' for 'em all these years with Child Support (even if it was YOUR phone and YOUR car.) I get it...he can keep payin' if he wants to, but you and mom unilaterally say no. Beautiful.

Out of state tuition. I'm guessing (because of the scholarship info) that CCC is not heading off to MIT. I'd bet she can get a fair sight more education than she could handle right at the local comm. coll. or univ. Everyone would save a ton on the room and board. And you could let her use your phone and car.

OK...could go on and on but should keep my nose out of your business. The UT courts are not going to force dad to foot this bill. Neither are you. How about if mom calls dad to see if he's interested in discussing the issue and if there's an OPTION he's given any thought to?

My dad paid his own way. He could afford it but made me pay my own way, too. I can afford it, but all of my kids will pay their own way. And I don't even have my sheepskin hanging on the wall.
 
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vlada

Member
BelizeBreeze said:
That is NOT what this idiot said.
You might be an idiot yourself. When I have time I'll find that ruling stating that it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to treat a divorced farther differently in regard of a support of emancipatd child. Emancipation defined in many states the same.
As to PA ruling, we just recently had a decision on the issue.
Some rulings even disregarded Divorce Agreement on education.
 

vlada

Member
As to the subject, the "princess" could go to community college and then transfer to a in state university.
 

BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
vlada said:
BelizeBreeze said:
That is NOT what this idiot said.
You might be an idiot yourself. When I have time I'll find that ruling stating that it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to treat a divorced farther differently in regard of a support of emancipatd child. Emancipation defined in many states the same.
As to PA ruling, we just recently had a decision on the issue.
Some rulings even disregarded Divorce Agreement on education.
spin it any way you want. Unless you can come back here with the exact cite, your bar card number or the year you graduated from law school you're a forum troll who doesn't know one thing about the law.
 

BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
Then I'll do your homework for you.

PENNSYLVANIA: Curtis v. Kline, 20 Fam. L. Rep. (BNA) 1232 (Pa. Jan. 11, 1995).

In a stunning decision completely at odds with every other state's decision on the issue, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court declared that its college support statute was unconstitutional.

In 1993, the Pennsylvania legislature enacted 23 Pa. Cons. Stat. Ann. 4327(a), which provides that a court may order either or both parents who are separated, divorced, unmarried, or otherwise subject to an existing support obligation to provide for educational costs of their child. This statute was enacted in direct response to Blue v. Blue, 532 Pa. 521, 616 A.2d 628 (1992), in which the Pennsylvania Supreme Court refused to recognize a duty requiring a parent to provide college education support because no such duty had been imposed by the legislature. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court held that the statute violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment because there was no rational basis to discriminate between divorced parents and nondivorced parents in their obligation to provide for a college education for their children. Curtis v. Kline, 20 Fam. L. Rep. (BNA) 1232 (Pa. Jan. 11, 1995).


You can read the decision here. http://www.peak.org/~jedwards/pen1.txt

The one thing the decision did NOT DO is invalidate the law, which is still on the books pending appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The appeal is based on P.O.P.S. v. Gardner, (9th Cir. 1993) 998 F. 2d. 764. in which the U.S. Supreme Court let stand a child support order based on a Washington State statute ( Chapter 26.19 RCW ) which is similiar to that of Pennsylvania and does not REQUIRE but advises guidelines for post secondary educational expenses in Child Support orders.

The problem with some people reading court decisions is that they tend to read what they want into the decision. and the problem with the 1995 decision of the Pennsylvania Surpreme Court is that while it ruled that the plaintiff in the underlying action did not have to pay for post-secondary education, it also did not specifically rule that any post secondary support statute would be so considered as unconstitutional.

And, of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with the point of this entire thread. Which is Utah.

Now, if you would have researched the decision in Kline, based on the U.S. Supreme Court's Knight decision, you would have noticed a small, innocent little paragraph at the bottom of the decision.

The Polites Court split 5-4, the majority opinion finding that the intervening decisions cited did not create new law effective to alter the law controlling the previous judgment. The majority found at 364 U.S. 433 that it did not have to find that “relief under Rule 60(b) is inflexibly to be withheld when there has later been a clear and authoritative change in governing law.” The dissent at 364 U.S. 437-440 found that FRCP 60(b) can be used to grant relief from a judgment when a subsequent court decision changes the controlling law.

This split decision left the issue open and the circuits have since split as to whether and what extraordinary circumstances are necessary for a subsequent decision to provide grounds for relief from judgment. An opportunity to clarify this issue might have occurred in Fiore v. White, (2001) 148 L. Ed. 2d. 629, 121 S. Ct. 712 (Fiore II), but the Pennsylvania court answered that its subsequent decision did not change the state law, it was the correct reading of the law at the time of the previous conviction.


The Kline decision, in light of Polites, although effectively invalidating the statute now in effect for Kline, does not automatically invalidate orders issued before the decision.

Which, for purposes of this thread, simply means that either the Pennsylvania laws will be rewritten to reflect more closely Chapter 26.19 RCW (Wash) or the decision will be overturned on appeal.

What it does NOT mean is that every order currently issued for post-secondary education expense sharing in Support Orders is automatically invalid.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Not to completely change the subject from this oh so interesting debate....I do have a comment for the OP.

You need to rethink the part of the agreement that is anti-cell phone. I have a ton of friends with kids in college and they all have informed me that a cellphone is a far less costly way of maintaining contact with the child than the other options available.
 

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