looking for some help please

[helpfulhank]

florida

Well i just spent an hour explaining my whole situation and it didnt post so im going to try and give a condensed version ill answer any questions anyone has

both of my parents had revocable trusts. My father predeceased my mom. His will took me out of his estate in 2002 or so.

my moms will named myself and 2 neices as benificaries 30% to me plus her house(55+ condo) and 35% to each neice

It was always both my girlfriends and my understanding that this was to be the combined amount of both estates. This is based on conversations that we had with my mom. Jointly and seperately (the conversations)

upon her death the lawyer that has handled their wills since 1979 and is also the executor, came to moms house to meet with the 3 of us. He briefly laid out the terms of the will mentioning the above conditions.

several days later he asked them to come in to the office and meet with him(neices had POA) so i didnt suspect anything. I didnt ask nor did they mention what the meeting was about.
they informed me he wanted to meet with me on that next tuesday(after they flew home)

The meeting was to inform me that i was only going to receive proceeds from my moms estate and not my fathers,as he had a clause that although she had full entitlement to his assets while she was alive when she passed the terms reverted back to his desires. IE: i wasnt mentioned only the granddaughters (my neices)In addition there was no mention at this meeting of the house being a problem (joint ownership)

As i mentioned in my heart i know that this wasnt my moms intentions and that because the lawyer failed to read my fathers will before sitting down with my mom he didnt inform her of the language of dads will which excluded me

fastforward 2 months,we hired a real estate agent to handle the sale of moms house and she calls and says theres an issue with the deed according to the lawyer
so i email them and ask about the status the paralegal responds that she is having a meeting with the lawyer mon morn. and will i be available to speak to them.So being the worrier that i am i call her and she is elusive and hesitant to give me any info but mentions that its something that goes back to 1979. At this point Im assuming the house is still in joint ownership.
I expect the lawyer will say something like "Dont worry ive spoken to your neices and they are willing to relinquish their portion of the house because they know that your mom wanted you to have it".
Well duh its written right in her will!

ok so heres my quandry, i feel like this proves that my mom was unaware of the provisions of my dads will. If she WAS made aware (as the lawyer states) that his estate didnt automatically become hers at death than she would have transferred the title into her name before her death. And in addition would have adjusted the percentages or just put some language in there that made the final settlement equal to all of us


do you think this enough information to persue a contestment of both estates?? I dont know the value of dads im assuming in the 300k to 400k range
my portion of moms is around 300k including the house



i hope you can understand what im asking here and thanks for reading

 

[anteater]

hank - You need to ask a question (and remember to include the state).

 

[helpfulhank]

hank - You need to ask a question (and remember to include the state).

the question is the 2nd to last sentence

and the state is the first word of the post

 

[TrustUser]

hank,

you mention 2 revocable trusts, but dont seem to say much about them.

a will does not affect a trust.

but i am wondering if there was anything actually titled to either trust ?

the rest of your post seems to indicate that wills are dictating everything.

 

[helpfulhank]

hank,

you mention 2 revocable trusts, but dont seem to say much about them.

a will does not affect a trust.

but i am wondering if there was anything actually titled to either trust ?

the rest of your post seems to indicate that wills are dictating everything.

what info would you like? my dads will gives everything to his granddaughters
my moms includes me and her grandchildren




im sorry if im not using the correct terminolgy with wills and trusts they were both trustees for each others trusts if that helps
my point is that my mother didnt know that my dads will reverted back to whatever he decreed upon HER death.

the lawyer swears that he made her aware of my fathers wishes and she was chooseing to "honor his wishes" (In my opinion he is lying to cover his ass)
if in fact she was aware than she should have known that she couldnt give me her house as it was jointly owned and she would have to take measures to put it in her name so that infact it could be willed to me.



I contend my mom thought that both trusts or estates were hers to disperse as she saw fit as she had unlimited access to it after his death
and that she was not aware that dads will did not allow for that (once she died)
same lawyer did both wills
in my opinion he didnt remind her that if in fact she wanted the dispersement to be equal she would have to make the percentage willed to me larger to offset the amount of money going to their granddaughters from my dads trust
I maintain that this is evidenced(that lawyer failed to remind her of the language in dads will) by her lack of putting her home in her name only It is clearly given to me in her will.
for what its worth if it matters they were both the trustees for each others trust

 

[anteater]

hank -

It's not just a matter of terminology.

A trust is created by writing a legal document that defines the terms of the trust - the settlor, the trustee, the beneficiaries, what happens to the property that is placed in the trust, etc. A trust only controls property that is titled in the trust's name (actually in the Trustee's name, as the trustee, but that is going overboard for this discussion.) A trust is basically a private document. Courts generally do become involved with trusts or trust administration unless an interested party brings an issue before the court.

A will is a different document that expresses a person's final wishes. For a will to be effective, the will needs to be presented to and adjudged valid by the probate court. The court appoints an executor (I believe that Florida uses the term personal representative) to administer the probate estate and carry out the deceased's wishes as expressed in the will.

Among other things, the will expresses the wishes for the distribution of the deceased's property after all debts are paid. But the will only controls property which is subject to probate - in high level terms, property owned solely by the deceased. Not property that is titled to a trust, or that is owned jointly with right of survivorship, or that has a separate beneficiary designation (as IRA's or bank accounts or investment accounts might have.)

That is why it becomes so confusing when you keep switching between talking about trust/trustees and wills/executors. And then, you throw in that the house was "jointly owned." That raises the possibility that neither a trust nor a will controlled its disposition when your father died.

All that said, because of the kinds of "who knew what when" questions you are asking, I don't know that anybody here can provide any answers.

I do have one suggestion since the house seems to be at the center of the problem. Go to the county department that maintains real estate records and track down exactly how the house was titled.

 

[helpfulhank]

thanks for the reply
sorry to be so confusing
its very confusing to me as well so thats why i guess im having trouble presenting it properly

its my understanding that people do trusts to prevent probate? is that correct? because there is no probate to my knowledge,I have already received a prelimanary dispersment check.
i dunno I just know in my heart that this isnt the way my mom was intending her (their) estates to be dispersed. she intended it to be 3 equal shares including my fathers money.

dosent it make sense that if my mom wanted me to get her house as stated in her trust and if she knew(as lawyer claims) that joint ownership would prevent this (based on my father deleteing me from his will) that the lawyer would have informed at the time she redid her trust with him that she would need to transfer ownership to herself as the sole oowner

 

[anteater]

its my understanding that people do trusts to prevent probate? is that correct?

Yes, that is one of the reasons.

because there is no probate to my knowledge

Then it is likely that you are dealing with a trust or trusts.

dosent it make sense that if my mom wanted me to get her house as stated in her trust and if she knew(as lawyer claims) that joint ownership would prevent this...

See, you are throwing in a term without defining what you mean by it. If you say "joint ownership" to me, I assume that you mean that the house was owned by your father and mother and the deed reflects that. Not as part of a trust. But simply in their names.

Now it could be that the house was part of your father's trust and the trust read that your mother would have use of the house while she was alive and, after your mother's death, it passed to your nieces.

...that the lawyer would have informed at the time she redid her trust with him that she would need to transfer ownership to herself as the sole oowner

Well... What you are apparently talking about is alleging some sort of attorney malpractice (?). You can certainly run things by a couple attorneys, but I just have a hard time seeing it.

I still suggest checking out the property records to determine exactly how the house was titled.

 

[helpfulhank]

once again thanks for the reply
im throughly confused after attempting to read his "trust" and all 6 revisions

but if im getting what youre saying you either have a will or a trust and not both all of the documents are referred to as trusts and ammendments to such guess i have to wait until monday and hear what the lawyer/executor has to tell me.
this is consuming me mentally and until i hear what he has to say its all speculation(assumptions) and we all know what they say about assumeing
thanks again for the reply**************tune in again on monday for an update

 

[anteater]

but if im getting what youre saying you either have a will or a trust and not both

No, that's not what I was implying. People often create a trust (or even more than one trust) and also have a will. The difference is the assets that each type of document covers. Assets placed in the trust are covered by the trust document. Assets not placed in the trust would be covered by the will (or the relevant state's intestate succession statutes if there is no will).

People who create living trusts often create wills that direct that any assets that are not already placed in the trust transfer to the trust upon their death. Such a will is usually called a "pour over will."

 

[nextwife]

The will only controls those assets that would pass via probate.

Some forms of ownership cause that asset to pass outside probate. Additionally, in probate, the estate must pay the creditors first.

So, if I own a house in jt tenacy, for example, and the jt tenant dies, I automatically become the owner and that house is never part of the estate. One needs to know what assets are in the estate and which are not to know what is controlled by the will. Also, I cannot will something to someone and have my will control where it goes after the next owner passes.

 

[helpfulhank]

once again i appreciate all the attempts to clairify this for me but i fear its over my head definitly gaining some respect for the law here If only there werent so many legalise terms and just good ol english perhaps id stand a chance. But im feeling like unless i fax copies to one of you guys ill always be somewhat of a loss. I mean its not total greek to me, but until I speak to the lawyer on mon. im just wasting all of youre time. But I cant thank you all enough. please check back monday morning when i know more...ken