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MIRANDA WARNINGS; For Public Consumption

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CdwJava

Senior Member
conflix said:
Carl, I believe you wrote that when a person being questioned by the police admits he committed an offense, the police in your state do not necessarily have to arrest the person.

Am I correctly interpreting your comment?
Yep.


If I am correct, would you please name a few of the offenses you believe a person can confess to police he committed without being charged with the offenses?
Virtually anything can NOT be "charged". But I wasn't talking about a subject not being charged, I was refering to a subject being arrested. There IS a difference. Having probable cause to make an arrest does not make an arrest mandatory ... it is likely, but not mandatory. Off the top of my head I can think of only one "shall arrest" law in CA, though I am relatively certain there are others.


As an aside, does the legislature in your state empower police officers to use discretion when deciding who should be arrested for “crimes” and “violations” defined in your state’s criminal lawbook?
We don't have a "criminal handbook", but we are given broad discretion ... as are the police in EVERY state.

- Carl
 


conflix

Member
LawGirl10 said:
Answer to question #1: often times, yes, they are free to leave. Police routinely go "long form" on a charge and do not arrest on site. Therefore, there is no point in addressing the rest of your questions.
Miss, I am going to disagree with you. I am sure every sworn police officer on this board cringed when they read your response to my question regarding Det. Ortiz' burglary investigation.
 

conflix

Member
CdwJava said:
Yep.
Having probable cause to make an arrest does not make an arrest mandatory ... it is likely, but not mandatory.
- Carl
Carl, other than in an ongoing investigation, or in a case where the district attorney authorizes the police to not arrest a person who confessed to committing a crime, can you name one instance where a person being questioned by the police will not be arrested after admitting he or she committed a crime?

I noticed to did not respond to my burglary scenario. Would you mind pointing what flaws, if any, it contains?
 

Shay-Pari'e

Senior Member
conflix said:
Carl, if you truly did have any experience in criminal court, you would have realized I made a mistake by referring to a Wade hearing when discussing "statements" made by defendants.

Obviously you are unaware Wade hearings are conducted to discuss the procedures used by police in making corporeal identifications.

Huntley hearings are conducted to determine if statements made by defendants are admissible in court.

The fact that you do not know the difference between Wade and Huntley hearings leads me to ask, "Other than reading law related writings on the Internet, what real experience do you have in the field of law enforcement?"


Let us just tell you, he puts the badge on every morning. Does that satisfy you?

Sorry Carl, but the guy is an idiot.
 

LawGirl10

Member
conflix said:
Miss, I am going to disagree with you. I am sure every sworn police officer on this board cringed when they read your response to my question regarding Det. Ortiz' burglary investigation.

Actually, I highly doubt it. Anyone who has actually done the job knows exactly what I am talking about and why police officers choose to do it. There are tactical and practical reasons for doing so.

You can disagree all you want. Find out what you are talking about first and then get back with me, it happens all the time. I did it routinely depending on the type of the crime. Investigators I worked with routinely did it. It depends on the strength of your evidence at the time, where you are at in your investigation and the seriousness of the crime. Officers have discretion on who they arrest and it is ridiculous to suggest they think everyone needs to be arrested on-site for every crime they are investigating. Not every crime is of the same magnitude. Different techniques often need to be used with different criminals.

It is also used as a tactical advantage for the police. I just had this discussion with my Advanced Crim Pro law professor a few weeks ago. He is a senior prosecutor in a major U.S. city. We discussed this point exactly and my response was exactly in line with his. Often times, the suspect is free to leave. Doing it that way is often designed to get around Miranda. Bring them in by getting them to agree to be interviewed (or interview them at thier home or any other place that they agree to), don't Mirandize them, but conduct an interrogation designed to elicit incriminating information, get the confession and then walk away. File your report with the Prosecutor's office, use the confession that was obtained without Miranda: guess what, in that situation, you will not lose a 5th Amendment Miranda challenge.

In addition, try reading Oregon v. Mathiason, 429 U.S. 492 (1977) before you continue spouting off. Exact same facts as you "proposed" when you started changing things around with your little example, the suspect was asked to come to the station for questioining, not Mirandized, he confessed and he was released. He was LATER arrested and they used his confession against him. The Court ruled that Miranda was not required because he was not in custody at the time of questioning (or even after the incriminiating statement) and he was RELEASED after the questioning.

If you want to disagree with how the law works that is fine, but it is irrresponsible to insist that the law is a specific way when it clearly (if you took the time to read case law or understand how it actually works) is not.
 

LawGirl10

Member
conflix said:
Miss, I am going to disagree with you. I am sure every sworn police officer on this board cringed when they read your response to my question regarding Det. Ortiz' burglary investigation.

And finally, please don't presume you can speak for what the police officers on the board would or would not do. I did it for seven years so I am well acquainted with how officers conduct their work. If the officers on this board have a problem with what I am suggesting, they will take that up with me.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
conflix said:
Carl, other than in an ongoing investigation, or in a case where the district attorney authorizes the police to not arrest a person who confessed to committing a crime, can you name one instance where a person being questioned by the police will not be arrested after admitting he or she committed a crime?
I can name several.

You see, if you make an arrest at the moment you have probable cause a clock starts ticking. I may have PC for the arrest, but I may not have enough for a conviction. And once I make that arrest he now has some speedy trial rights that come in to play ... we may be forced to court before we are ready.


I noticed to did not respond to my burglary scenario. Would you mind pointing what flaws, if any, it contains?
Okay ...


Det. Ortiz is questioning a person he asked to come to the station house to make a statement about a burglary the detective is investigating. During the questioning the person implicates himself as a participant in the burglary.
First, you have to consider where this interview is being conducted. The fact that it is being conducted at the police station provides a different twist or perception on the entire process.


Question #1: Under routine circumstances, after implicating himself in the burglary, is the person being questioned by Det Ortiz free to leave the station house?
It depends. Very often, yes. We do it all the time. It depends on the nature of the crime and the offender.


Question #2: If you agree he is not free to leave, then will you agree he is in custody from the moment he implicated himself?
Per USSC court rulings, it is not what WE believe but what the defendant might believe. However, any good investigator will likely have issued a Beheler admonishment prior to the interview ... and if they really wanted to be safe, they would have issued a Miranda advisement.

But, certainly, a defense attorney can argue that "custody" existed at some point during the interview - they might even argue that custody existed at the outset.

Hence the need for at least Beheler.


Question #3: If you agree he is in custody at the moment he implicated himself in the burglary, will you agree Det Ortiz should stop his interview at that moment and inform the person he is being plcaed under arrest for burglary?
Since I don't believe he is legally "in custody" for Miranda purposes at the moment he implicated himself, Miranda wouldn't be required. It might be a safe move, but it is not required.

As I said, it is very common to let suspects go after such an interview. It makes for a clean process and shoots down most of the Miranda argument.

- Carl
 
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CdwJava

Senior Member
LawGirl10 said:
And finally, please don't presume you can speak for what the police officers on the board would or would not do. I did it for seven years so I am well acquainted with how officers conduct their work. If the officers on this board have a problem with what I am suggesting, they will take that up with me.
I didn't cringe. :D

And I've done the job for 14 years.

- Carl
 
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