Non-Conforming Lot: When / How Does It Revert

[drewguy]

Things this fellow should have considered before he lied to everyone at the hearing.

Glad it worked out, but I do think you're being a bit harsh on this person. He may have lied. Or he may have done this and then not had the money he hoped to have. In that case, it's entirely innocent, and so long as he isn't trying to stand on his "rights", which he can't now apparently, he's not exactly taking advantage of the supposed lie.

Anyway, glad you won't have two houses. Of course, someone may come along and buy the entire 9 acres and put up their dream house after removing the mobile home.

 

[justalayman]

=scorolo;2346970]No, the area has always been used for livestock. This is a FARM. And the lot in question is not only surrounded by other farms, it is also zoned agricultural. ALL of the property for miles is zoned A1 or A2. The "A" stands for "agricultural." So, no, I'm not bringing in livestock into an area that had none; I'm exchanging existing livestock for different, much more "fragrant" livestock. In this case, cattle and hogs. Copious quantities of both that my family has raised for generations

that has nothing to do with where on your property you maintain the animals. Agriculture also means farm land, like in growing grain, etc.

!

"Contestable action?" Are you joking?

absolutely not. I have seen it. If you have not historically used that area for animals and then you start due to this, your actions are to intentionally inflict harm upon the neighbor. Not only can it be stopped but the neighbor may even have an action against you.

Anyway, those of you who said the split couldn't be undone stand corrected. After doing a little research, my attorney contacted Planning & Zoning and they said the 2 lots WERE recombined back into one - just the maps had not been updated.

Here is where I will flat out say you are lying. A courts action would be required to combine those properties if the owner was not willing to do it. As such, the neighbor would have had to have been sued for the re-combination.

Even the owner had not been notified.

Ya, sure. BS at its best.

Still moving forward with the livestock plan. I've learned my lesson. Can't be too careful. Who knows what any buyer may want to do. When they see (and smell) the benefits of farm living, I have a feeling we won't have to worry about this problem again. Heck, it may make that property a little difficult to sell. Things this fellow should have considered before he lied to everyone at the hearing. And one can never have enough healthy organic beef and pork and chicken!

why don't you tell me where this is. I might come out and buy it just to prove you wrong.

Me and some of the other farmers / landowners are having a little dinner tomorrow. This has been a good experience as far as bringing us together and everyone seems united in making sure something like this doesn't get this far ever again, so maybe all has worked out not just good, but even better in the end. We really have to be pretty vigilant to defend farms and beautiful land from those who would lie and cheat and speculate to ruin it just to make a quick buck.

Ya, a quick buck. The guy got the variance 7 years ago. Yep, that's really getting rich quick.

 

[TigerD]

I don't wish anyone to be the victim of someone else's deception, but let my experience be a good lesson for anyone with a similar problem with adjoining landowners.

Well, shoot! I'm still trying to figure out why it is any of your business in the first place. Unless you are one of those busy bodies who isn't happy unless they are screwin' around in other folks business?

DC

 

[appraiser55]

Anyway, those of you who said the split couldn't be undone stand corrected. After doing a little research, my attorney contacted Planning & Zoning and they said the 2 lots WERE recombined back into one - just the maps had not been updated. Even the owner had not been notified. I would like to see his face when he gets the letter. Planning & Zoning said the reason why the lots were recombined is that he never followed through with his building permit / plat, per the ordinance requirements, as stated. So my attorney was right on the money.....Score one for the good guys, and more importantly, score one for the land.

Thanks for following up. You're lucky your zoning ordinance goes the extra mile and forces those who rezone to actually build if they say they are going to build. More and more of these types of checks and balances are in place, but if they aren't you could have had a much tougher time of it. BTW, The owner wasn't notified of the recombining of the lots back into one because no notice is given, nor is it required. When he applied for the rezone, he applied under the zoning ordinance, and the assumption is he should know what the ordinance states and requires. If the ordinance gives him 12 months to get a building permit, then he should have known that. If not, well, tough for him. And good for you.

 

[justalayman]

BTW, The owner wasn't notified of the recombining of the lots back into one because no notice is given, nor is it required. When he applied for the rezone, he applied under the zoning ordinance, and the assumption is he should know what the ordinance states and requires.

If the guy split the property, as in separate titles, it makes no difference what the township did. It will not and cannot recombine the lots into one. To do that, the township would have had to sue the guy and the courts are the only entity that could alter the title to the properties.

You guys go believe whatever you want but OP is playing the "look at what happened. I told you I was right" game. Nothing OP has stated would be reasonable actions given the scenario from some claim about rezoning (where we know there was no rezoning. merely a variance for a non-conforming property within the area) to the township recombined the properties, which cannot happen. A township has no legal authority to alter the title to a property. If they have any chance of altering title to property (which is very unusual and nearly non-existent in action), they would have had to enlist the courts to change whatever.

Since the courts were not involved, the property is titled however the owner had it titled before OP started all this BS.

but you two go on and believe whatever you want. It doesn't change the facts.

 

[scorolo]

A township has no legal authority...

I guess you're the resident contrarian here. Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions, and I'm not the sort to feed the troll, but I will make one final explanation why this story has a happy ending for those who may find themselves in similar circumstances.

Per the ordinance:"....division of a portion of the property,
the plat must be done within (1) one year of the zoning approval
or, the zoning reverts back to the original zone."

As my attorney, AND the staff at Planning & Zoning explained to me after conducting a little research - When he applied for the rezone (or a split resulting in at least one non-conforming lot, held to exactly the same standards / procedures as a rezone under our ordinance), he applied under the terms and conditions in the zoning ordinance (quoted above.) and effectively agrees to those terms and conditions just by owning property in this county, and certainly by applying for any action by our zoning board.

In his WRITTEN APPLICATION, he PUT IN WRITING that he was asking for the split so that he could, and he intended to BUILD A HOUSE.

From the date his request was granted, he had 12 months to record the plat and get his building permit. The clock started ticking the day his request was granted. He did not follow through with the plat or the permit, so it is as though the split never was granted. So, it's really not as complicated as I initially thought.

I'm just glad there will be no construction. Still got the livestock there now anyway for any future lookers. Love that country air!

All's well that ends well.

Much thanks again, guys.

 

[justalayman]

sure. It's your story. Tell it however you want. Don't let legal limits of the townships abilities get in your way.

a plat has nothing to do with the legal division of property. In fact, the guy can divide the property as he wants without any recourse by the township. All the township can do is allow or dissallow actions on the property. They can never limit the actual division of the property and as such, can never legally recombine lots.

and don't let the fact that he did not request a rezoning but a variance prevent you from telling the story your way. Of course all townships simply apply whatever ordinance they want to a situation regardless of whether it is applicable or not. I mean, who cares if this involved rezoning or not.

so it is as though the split never was granted.

all the guy had to do to split the property was have separate titles to the property made for 2 different sections of the property. It does not require permission from anybody.


too bad I don't know where this is. Like I said, I would be quite tempted to purchase the property myself and prove how incorrect you are.

 

[appraiser55]

a plat has nothing to do with the legal division of property.

I don't know where you live, but in the United States, in all municipalities with a zoning ordinance, a recorded plat has everything to do with legal division of property. Without a recorded plat, there is no legal division of the property on record. And all zoning ordinances I've ever read do require a plat to be recorded at the local courthouse and they require the plat be recorded in a reasonable amount of time, usually stated in the ordinance. These divisions and size of the resulting properties have everything to do with accurate appraisals and tax bills, so not only does a recorded plat have something to do with legal division of property, the recorded plat is the essential necessary element of division of property. That is why recorded plats are requirements, not some sort of "option," in every state and municipality I've been in. Without the recorded plat, there is no way to know what is what. Those lines on the map that state illustrate where property lines are located and the zoning classification of that property don't just magically appear. Those property lines and zoning classifications appear on the map only as the result of recorded plats. For example, if one requests a variance or rezone, but never records the plat showing the change, and one waits, say, 5, 10, 20, or 30 years to make use of that rezone, one should not be surprised when one is forced to stop. Why? Because if you do not record a legal plat at the courthouse there is no legal record of your rezone or variance. You can't just be ask for and be granted a rezone. You have to follow through with the legal requirements of a rezone or variance, and again, in the United States, in every municipality I've been in, the legal requirement is legally recording the plat at the courthouse in a reasonable amount of time. Sometimes the time limit may vary, but I've never seen a municipality that did not require a recorded plat, and I don't see how a govt. could operate without the recorded plat requirements. No one would know where anything is, who owns what, or what the zone is. The recording of the plat is precisely where all that information comes from. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I've never seen a govt. with a zoning ordinance that does not require timely filings of recorded plats for any division, rezone, or variance. YMMV

 

[154NH773]

As a farmer, you should know the old saying: "Don't count your chickens before they hatch."

While it might be true that the zoning board can rescind the subdivision because the separate deeds, or the plat, were not recorded; if they were recorded, the Town may be in for some extended litigation if they attempt to rescind the subdivision.

You keep referring to his "lie", but that would be an issue for a jury. I don't think after all this time that your position would be proveable other than he changed his mind as he's entitled to.

Remember, if this issue goes to court, the outcome is basically a crapshoot.

You said in the original post that the reason for rescinding the subdivision was because the building permit was not acted upon, that is a different animal than has now emerged from the subsequent posts.

 

[justalayman]

=appraiser55;2349372]I don't know where you live, but in the United States, in all municipalities with a zoning ordinance, a recorded plat has everything to do with legal division of property.

wrong.

Without a recorded plat, there is no legal division of the property on record

.wrong. It is at the registrar of deeds at the county offices and I can divide my property any way I want that is within state law allowances.

And all zoning ordinances I've ever read do require a plat to be recorded at the local courthouse and they require the plat be recorded in a reasonable amount of time, usually stated in the ordinance

.what? a zoning ordinance tells one what an area is zoned. It is a map the zoning office maintains. Show me a zoning ordinance that requires the owner to record a plat of the change.

just for fun, find out how to record a plat of a variance that allows the rear setback of a property to be allowed to be reduced from the standard requirement to a foot less because a guy screwed up and built his house too close to the back lot line and is now seeking a variance so he does not have to cut his eave from his house.

These divisions and size of the resulting properties have everything to do with accurate appraisals and tax bills, so not only does a recorded plat have something to do with legal division of property, the recorded plat is the essential necessary element of division of property

so what does that have to do with a zoning ordinance? but again, the county maintains those records as recordings of deeds are presented. The owner does not have to deal with the plat map. We have county people that get paid to do that.

That is why recorded plats are requirements, not some sort of "option," in every state and municipality I've been in.

you must have experience with a very small area. recorded plats are only required when in my area, the only plat recording that is done by a owner is when a subdivision is being developed. It is required because state law controls subdivisions and they need the proposed plat to study for acting upon. If accepted, that plat is recorded with the registrar of deeds, not the zoning office. If a simple split of a property such as in this thread, all that is done is deeds are written with the new property descriptions and title holders and those are recorded with the county registrar of deeds who then sends the recording to the county treasures office so new tax ID numbers are generated and associated with the new lots.

again, no action at the zoning office is required.

Without the recorded plat, there is no way to know what is what

.sure there is.

Those lines on the map that state illustrate where property lines are located and the zoning classification of that property don't just magically appear

I know. we use a plotter to draw them in our county and the zoning office tells you what an area is zoned after they determine what it is zoned.

. Those property lines and zoning classifications appear on the map only as the result of recorded plats

.You have it backwards. The zoning department determines what area is zoned what. They do follow the property lines of record to delineate the area generally but not always.

Want to hear something funny? I have seen a property that actually had two different zonings on a property. The zone limits actually split the property.

For example, if one requests a variance or rezone, but never records the plat showing the change, and one waits, say, 5, 10, 20, or 30 years to make use of that rezone, one should not be surprised when one is forced to stop.

You are nuts. When I request a variance, the zoning office records what the property description is of the property being granted the variance. If a rezone is requested, the zoning office alters their zoning map to reflect the change they allowed. I don't have anything to do with the recording of the rezone or variance.

Why? Because if you do not record a legal plat at the courthouse there is no legal record of your rezone or variance

.wrong. the record is at the zoning office where it belongs. the zoning office is a township office and the zoning is under township control. The courthouse has nothing to do with any of this but the county registrar of deeds (separate building) doesn't care about the zoning. They are a county office and have no control over zoning and since it is a township issue, the county does not maintain the zoning records.

You can't just be ask for and be granted a rezone.

sure you can. You file for a zoning change. The board reviews the request and decides if they will grant the request or not.

You have to follow through with the legal requirements of a rezone or variance, and again, in the United States, in every municipality I've been in, the legal requirement is legally recording the plat at the courthouse in a reasonable amount of time

.that's funny because the courthouse has nothing to do with the zoning. Zoning is an operation of townships and cities and counties and those zone regulations are maintained at the respective municipalities offices, not the courthouse.

No one would know where anything is, who owns what, or what the zone is

.who owns what and what it is zoned are two totally different issues. A record of title determines ownership. In my county, those records are maintained at the county registrar of deeds, which is not the courthouse. It is a dozen blocks away from 1 of 2 courthouses in the county and is about 30 miles from the other county courthouse.

The zoning in my area is controlled by the township which is an entirely seperate entity. The county has no control over the zoning and really doesn't care what is zoned what.

The recording of the plat is precisely where all that information comes from.

you are just plain wrong.

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I've never seen a govt. with a zoning ordinance that does not require timely filings of recorded plats for any division, rezone, or variance.

then come on over to SW Michigan. The owner does not record a zoning variance or rezone. The zoning office does that because, that is what they do.

come on over to southwest michigan. I have split property as well as others I know have split property as well as they have combined property. A deed is written with the new property description and the deed is recorded at the county registrar of deeds. That is it, everything, total, absolute, fine`. Of course, the county will take notice of a split because they have to issue a new tax ID number for the new lot but they have no control over the division of the property and no control or concern with the zoning issue especially since the county has nothing to do with zoning.


note: township was used generically. In my area, I live outside any city limits and as such, the township deals with zoning. Within a city limit, the city would replace township.

 

[appraiser55]

Show me a zoning ordinance that requires the owner to record a plat of the change.

Well, for starters, the ordinance that was quoted by the OP. "If there is a rezone with a division of a portion of the property, the plat must be done within (1) one year of the zoning approval...." What part of "plat must be done" is not clear? The exact or similar wording is present in most zoning ordinances I've read or worked with. Again, YMMV, and apparently it does.

 

[appraiser55]

Of course, the county will take notice of a split because they have to issue a new tax ID number for the new lot but they have no control over the division of the property and no control or concern with the zoning issue especially since the county has nothing to do with zoning.

Perhaps this last statement you make is the source of misunderstanding. In all the counties I've worked, most in the South U.S., the county has everything to do with zoning. The elected county commissioners are the zoning board, giving approval to or denying rezones of property. There is usually also a Planning Board, but decisions by the Planning Board carry no legal authority whatsoever. The actions of the Planning Board only serve as recommendations to the county commissioners. You state over and over that these records aren't in the courthouse. That Planning & Zoning offices aren't in the courthouse. Michigan must be a lot different than the South. In every county in the South I've done business, ALL of these records and the P & Z offices are in the courthouse.

 

[justalayman]

Well, for starters, the ordinance that was quoted by the OP. "If there is a rezone with a division of a portion of the property, the plat must be done within (1) one year of the zoning approval...." What part of "plat must be done" is not clear? The exact or similar wording is present in most zoning ordinances I've read or worked with. Again, YMMV, and apparently it does.

ymmv? is that supposed to mean something?

the involved party did not seek a rezoning of his property, merely a variance to the rules of the zoning in place so a request for a rezoning would not be applicable, but anyway;

"If there is a rezone with a division of a portion of the property,
the plat must be done within (1) one year of the zoning approval
or, the zoning reverts back to the original zone."

so, with a vague statement such as "the plat must be done within one year of approval" It simply requires one to pictorially delineate the area for which the zoning change is requested. That is required in most typical zoning change requests.

where does it state it must be recorded and if it is to be recorded, where is it to be recorded and since the registrar of deeds has nothing to do with a zoning office, what does the zoning have to do with the division and subsequent change of title to a given lot?



.
zoning is zoning and lot division is lot division.

and still, what does any of this have to do with the courthouse in any given area?

 

[justalayman]

well, here is a county in the south that I picked totally at random. Maybe you could clue me to where they have anything to do with zoning:

Zapata County - Commissioners Court

 

[appraiser55]

well, here is a county in the south that I picked totally at random. Maybe you could clue me to where they have anything to do with zoning:

Zapata County - Commissioners Court

OK. First of all, YMMV stands for Your Mileage May Vary. I thought that was common knowledge. My apologies for not spelling it out.

I would love to clue you in to what those commissioners have to do with zoning. Unfortunately, in your ridiculous effort to prove that county commissioners somehow have no authority or input in making zoning decisions, you chose as your example a county that has not yet adopted a comprehensive zoning ordinance. Had you actually read the info. from the link you posted you would see that they currently are in the process. But, never fear, a little research to the links from the site you posted and you would have learned that all county commissioners in all counties in Texas have the same legal authority, responsibilities and duties, including land use and zoning.
When Zapata County adopts a zoning ordinance ( info. is right there in the minutes on the site YOU posted a link to ) guess who will be making the rezoning approvals or denials? That's right...THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS.
If you actually read the info. from the link you posted you might not remain ignorant. Right there on the municipality website you selected as an example that in actuality only disproves the nonsense you so freely espouse, you will see that the COUNTY COMMISSIONERS duties IN ALL TEXAS COUNTIES, not just Zapata County, include:

"Reviews and approve subdivision platting"

Also, the county commissioners are responsible for "establishing long-range thoroughfare, open space, and land use plans" ( including zoning ordinances)

Furthermore, if a special Zoning Board (call it whatever you wish) were appointed, or hired, guess who does that? ...THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS. It's called Representative Government. Anyone appointed or hired (with the exception of some Boards of Assessors) serves at the pleasure of THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS.
By the way, where are all these important meetings held and decisions made? Yep...at the County Courthouse.
I have tried to be as polite as possible, but I think you will post anything to make an argument. Seriously, when you post a link to information that absolutely disproves your nonsense...well, that speaks for itself.