Odometer Fraud Part II

[Supmom810]

FL
I did not hear back from the dealer, so as a courtesy call, I spoke to him about what his intentions were if any.
He stated that he was working on a letter back to me, but hadn't gotten all the info together yet.
He wants to send me all the receipts that he has in the car.
He is offering to fix the speedometer, odometer, brakes, back brake light and cv joints even though we bought it as is. He wants us to get two quotes on all the repairs and he will pay the lowest of the two. He said as far as the 5 year warranty on the paint, that will only cover it if the paint fades, not the cracking and peeling.
He admitted to not having a buyers guide on the car and that he called the DMV to find out what he should do. I guess they told him to mail me one, which I still have not received. So my question to him was, how did we know it was "as is", when there was no buyers guide, he told us over and over how perfect shape the car was in, there was a 5 year warranty on the paint, blah blah.
He also admitted that the sensor is not a "new" sensor, but he had another 95 civic that he was selling, took the sensor from the car we bought and put it in the other 95. Then when he knew we were coming up to look at the 95 we bought, he took a sensor out of a 93 Civic to replace the one he took out of ours. He said that is probably the reason it doesn't work right now, it's a 93 sensor. He said it was working and probably broke when they went on the test drive. He admitted that he drove this car and I'm thinking that's probably why he was vacuuming it out when we got there. There was not a dealer sticker on the car, but only For Sale with the dealers phone number written on the side window.
So we have another two weeks before the attorney gets involved. The dealer said that he wants to make this right and since he is new in the business, he doesn't want any problems. Sounds to me, he has a lot to learn and I shouldn't be the one who teaches him. We just had to put new tires on yesterday, and at this point I just want him to give a full refund and take the car back.
What actually are the dealers supposed to disclose at the time of sale? What repairs are they required to do to a car, before it is sold?

 

[cjbrown929]

FL
I did not hear back from the dealer, so as a courtesy call, I spoke to him about what his intentions were if any.
He stated that he was working on a letter back to me, but hadn't gotten all the info together yet.
He wants to send me all the receipts that he has in the car.
He is offering to fix the speedometer, odometer, brakes, back brake light and cv joints even though we bought it as is. He wants us to get two quotes on all the repairs and he will pay the lowest of the two. He said as far as the 5 year warranty on the paint, that will only cover it if the paint fades, not the cracking and peeling.
He admitted to not having a buyers guide on the car and that he called the DMV to find out what he should do. I guess they told him to mail me one, which I still have not received. So my question to him was, how did we know it was "as is", when there was no buyers guide, he told us over and over how perfect shape the car was in, there was a 5 year warranty on the paint, blah blah.
He also admitted that the sensor is not a "new" sensor, but he had another 95 civic that he was selling, took the sensor from the car we bought and put it in the other 95. Then when he knew we were coming up to look at the 95 we bought, he took a sensor out of a 93 Civic to replace the one he took out of ours. He said that is probably the reason it doesn't work right now, it's a 93 sensor. He said it was working and probably broke when they went on the test drive. He admitted that he drove this car and I'm thinking that's probably why he was vacuuming it out when we got there. There was not a dealer sticker on the car, but only For Sale with the dealers phone number written on the side window.
So we have another two weeks before the attorney gets involved. The dealer said that he wants to make this right and since he is new in the business, he doesn't want any problems. Sounds to me, he has a lot to learn and I shouldn't be the one who teaches him. We just had to put new tires on yesterday, and at this point I just want him to give a full refund and take the car back.
What actually are the dealers supposed to disclose at the time of sale? What repairs are they required to do to a car, before it is sold?

Supmom, thanks for update. I don't mind giving dealers the benefit of the doubt but when they start piling up lies, inconsistencies etc, it's all over.

This paragraph was added AFTER I reread your post. Can you return the car? To answer your question, the forum needs to know whether the old contract was voided, and a new one signed noting the unknown miles. You MAY be able to get out of the deal AND collect damages. The next paragraphs deal with various other possible actions etc

My impression is that this guy is doing minimal damage control considering the problems he is facing. He'll tell you anything that works, like, "I'm new in the business". What a GREAT line! It is designed to 1) evoke sympathy for the new hard-working guy on the block and 2) explain the many, possibly illegal actions he committed (ie I'm NEW! I didn't KNOW!). You could fertilize a field of corn with that line.

I would point out that the main reason he is accomodating you at all is the issue with the odometer. If he replaced the sensor on your son's car (how's he doing through all this?), it sounds to me like he's admitting the odometer was not functioning for some period of time while in his possession (else, how would he know it needed to be replaced). If that was the case, when he put an actual figure under the odometer reading WITHOUT noting that the true miles were unknown, he violated state and FEDERAL law, and he did it KNOWINGLY. That could cost HIM to the tune of TRIPLE damages.

Question: did you ever consent along with the dealer to void the old contract, and sign a new one? The original one you signed is not "valid" anyway, because it does not note the unknown miles.

You have MASSIVE leverage against this "new" dealer. He is trying to keep his losses to a minimum here, and using your apparently nice, trusting nature to do so. Don't forget...he KNEW what he was doing, and if you hadn't done your homework, he would not have told you!

If your son likes the car and it seems worthwhile, and you haven't already done so, void the old contract and sign a new one featuring a price that will reflect the GREAT loss in value for a car with u.m. PLUS fixing it up NICE. Oh, and a good warranty. Remember, this guy is facing triple damages (what, $almost $6,000 X 3, or $18,000). But he's not going to just roll over. Be tough. Good luck!

 

[BelizeBreeze]

I'm going to ignore the comments from a used car salesman since he still hasn't gotten it through his meager mind that a consumer has NO LEGAL RIGHT to void a contract absent BOTH PARTIES agreement or the court's order.

Supermom, take the car back to the dealership, hand them a receipt for the new tires and tell the dealer you will wait for them to issue you a check for the full amount plus the tires and you are willing to go to the bank with them to cash said check.

Otherwise, you will drive the care to your attorney's office and file a complaint with the Florida State Attorney General and the FTC for fraud.

The dealer is required to post on every vehicle the Buyer's Guide and failure to do so, which also requires specifically to denote the expressed (or lack thereof) warranty, is a violation of the Florida Consumer Protection Act.

This has nothing to do with the odometer. The dealer screwed up.

Federal law requires dealers to affix a Buyer's Guide sticker on the window of each used car. The sticker will inform you as to: whether the car comes with a warranty and, if so what specific protection the dealer will provide; whether the car is sold "as is" (with no warranties)

 

[Supmom810]

In my letter to him, I included all the statutes that I believe he is in violation of, both State and Federal, with the help from our attorney. I asked him to void the old contract and rewrite a new one with an offer that I feel is a fair price for the car considering the repairs we will/are doing to make it safe for my son to drive.
My son is still sending his payments on time so that he can not use that we are not following through with our part of the contract. When I called him, he stated that he does not want to rewrite the contract, but he would pay for the repairs mentioned above. I did look up his business license and he has only been in business for approx. 6 months.
CJBrown, he says he knew the odometer was not working because he removed the sensor to place it in another car that he was selling, but also replaced the one in the car that we purchased. He has not however admitted to putting miles on the car while the sensor was removed.
My son is back and forth on what he wants to do. One day he likes the car and is making all kinds of plans to fix it up, the next he wants all his money back.
I gave the dealer 30 days to decide what he would like to do. My last conversation with him, I told him that I would wait for his written response which I should have received a week ago and would consider his offer. I think he thinks I'm just going to go away. He just doesn't understand how protective a mother can be. My son saved every penny that he received for b-days, x-mas's, etc so that he would have enough to put down (I only chipped in a small amout). I'm trying to teach my son how to be responsible and work for what you want, but when he is out delivering a pizza and calls and says "mom my tire is shredded, I have a delivery in my car, come bring me your car" then it irritates the heck out of me that he is the one getting a raw deal. This kid is working 5 nights a week, is on the Varsity Baseball team and still keeping his grades up, he deserves better.
Sorry to ramble on, but when you all confirm that we are getting screwed, it gets me all wound up.
BelizeBreeze, if I file the complaints with everyone you suggested, will we lose the car? Someone told me that they might take the car until this all gets straightened out. If this is true, will we still be required to continue making payments until settled?
Thanks again and guys, it's ok to agree to disagree with eachother

 

[BelizeBreeze]

In my letter to him, I included all the statutes that I believe he is in violation of, both State and Federal, with the help from our attorney. I asked him to void the old contract and rewrite a new one with an offer that I feel is a fair price for the car considering the repairs we will/are doing to make it safe for my son to drive.
My son is still sending his payments on time so that he can not use that we are not following through with our part of the contract. When I called him, he stated that he does not want to rewrite the contract, but he would pay for the repairs mentioned above. I did look up his business license and he has only been in business for approx. 6 months.
CJBrown, he says he knew the odometer was not working because he removed the sensor to place it in another car that he was selling, but also replaced the one in the car that we purchased. He has not however admitted to putting miles on the car while the sensor was removed.
My son is back and forth on what he wants to do. One day he likes the car and is making all kinds of plans to fix it up, the next he wants all his money back.
I gave the dealer 30 days to decide what he would like to do. My last conversation with him, I told him that I would wait for his written response which I should have received a week ago and would consider his offer. I think he thinks I'm just going to go away. He just doesn't understand how protective a mother can be. My son saved every penny that he received for b-days, x-mas's, etc so that he would have enough to put down (I only chipped in a small amout). I'm trying to teach my son how to be responsible and work for what you want, but when he is out delivering a pizza and calls and says "mom my tire is shredded, I have a delivery in my car, come bring me your car" then it irritates the heck out of me that he is the one getting a raw deal. This kid is working 5 nights a week, is on the Varsity Baseball team and still keeping his grades up, he deserves better.
Sorry to ramble on, but when you all confirm that we are getting screwed, it gets me all wound up.
BelizeBreeze, if I file the complaints with everyone you suggested, will we lose the car? Someone told me that they might take the car until this all gets straightened out. If this is true, will we still be required to continue making payments until settled?
Thanks again and guys, it's ok to agree to disagree with eachother

this someone is an idiot. you do not lose anything until such time as the dealer returns ALL MONIES or you file suit and win, in which case you will be ordered to turn the car back to the dealer in exchange for the monies owed.

Why the hell are you writing in any case? and 30 DAYS? you should have told him five days period.

In any case, how long has it been since you sent the letter and did you send it certified (RRR)?

 

[Supmom810]

My son wanted to try and keep the car, so before the attorney sent a letter demanding the dealer take the car back and refund our money, we sent a letter with an offer. The attorney felt this was ok. Yes, we sent it certified and also included a payment with the letter and the check has been cashed.
I'm trying to do right by everyone involved.
We are at fault for not doing a more thorough inspection of the car and asking more questions before the sale. So yes, call me stupid. Maybe I'm just too naive and believe this guy will do the right thing. The letter was sent Nov. 26th.

 

[cjbrown929]

Supmom: don't mind bb, he gets very emotional about these things.

Go to:

http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us/fhp/html/warnings/odometer.html

for more info from the Florida Highway Patrol on odometer fraud. The fact that this guy has a new business license could mean that he fled his last place of business after generating too much heat.

Look, don't take my word for it, ask the FHP (there's wasn't a # on the site, but I'll bet you can get one by calling their main #) about your contract. Ask them what effect(s) there are because the dealer did not note unknown miles on the title. For one thing, the mileage he noted on the contract are entered into the state data base as correct, which I am certain he knew to be a lie. That has GOT to affect the contract somehow.

BB's probably going apopleptic from that last one. I should've warned him.

Anyway, everybody's got their opinion, mine is that the odometer "fraud" issue dwarfs the buyers guide issue. Again, ask the FHP; that site is set up specifically to get and give info on odometer fraud, so they probably know a lot more than bb and I. Ask 'em if they'll need to take the car as evidence (unlikely), or what there procedures are.

Hey, they may already know your dealer!

Good luck, keep us apprised...

note: I had the wrong address for the fhp, the one listed above works fine!

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Listen *******, I've had enough of your crap. Either keep your comments to the subject at had or take it to someone who gives a crap about your OPINION.

I am sick and tired of you following me around like a puppy on these forums and posting false and misleading information.

You want to play these games then bring it.

As for you supermom, since you have an attorney the only question is why are you continuing here. It serves no purpose and undermines your attorney's actions on your behalf.

Besides the fact that you will continue believing the advice you receive from a used car salesman which also undermines your OWN attorney's advice.

I would stronly suggest you close this thread and let your attorney handle matters. It seems they are on the right track.