Odometer Fraud?

[dallas702]

....not so sure that "odometer fraud" is the complaint your looking for. The dealer looks to be guilty of selling a car with a nonworking ODO (as both BB and CJ have pointed out), but proving the dealer tried to defraud you may be more trouble than it's worth. Apparently, the dealer made a half-assed attempt to repair the malfunctioning sending unit, but didn't insure that it worked properly. Personally, I suspect that the whole ODO system was tampered with and screwed up at some time, but it may not have been the dealer who did the initial damage.

If your question now is ....can you legally return the car and undo the deal, it appears you can. You can inform the DMV of your suspicions and they should handle the dealer from there. If you do have the legal right to return the car and start over I would certainly take it. There are hundreds of thousands of those Hondas in the market, and it would be far better to find one that you knew hadn't been tampered with in any way.

 

[cjbrown929]

My emphasis throughout this thread has not been to hammer the dealer with fraud charges (even though I think there is plenty of evidence to support it), but rather to give the op an accurate overview of their rights and options.

Look at the situation this way: this car can NEVER be sold (legally) again unless the odo discrepancy is revealed, which substantially reduces its value.


To the op: thanks for your patience throughout this debate. If the dealer tells you that they don't have to rewrite the contract, they are not only wrong, but approaching criminal type behavior.

At the Toyota dealership I worked at, we (not me, of course) very occasionally accidentally sold a car with "unknown miles" as one with known miles. Man, I can tell you, this was a MAJOR PROBLEM and if we could get the customer to come back in, explain the mistake, and rewrite the contract with a substantial discount (if they wanted to keep it) before the customer reported the issue to the dmv, we would thank our lucky stars.

Contact the consumer affairs dept, dmv, and if necessary, the feds if they give you a hassle.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

My emphasis throughout this thread has not been to hammer the dealer with fraud charges (even though I think there is plenty of evidence to support it), but rather to give the op an accurate overview of their rights and options.

Look at the situation this way: this car can NEVER be sold (legally) again unless the odo discrepancy is revealed, which substantially reduces its value.


To the op: thanks for your patience throughout this debate. If the dealer tells you that they don't have to rewrite the contract, they are not only wrong, but approaching criminal type behavior.

Contact the consumer affairs dept, dmv, and if necessary, the feds if they give you a hassle.

CJ maybe you can hire an attorney to teach you about contract law because you are continually stating a falsehood.

The contract is NOT rewritable. PERIOD. IT is either void or not.

A court cannot rewrite the contract. It is either void or not. If void, and the court find fault, then damages can be assessed. If not void and the court finds fault, then damages can be assessed.

HOWEVER, neither the COURT nor our poster has any legal right to REWRITE the contract and the dealer has no legal obligation to rewrite the contract.

It stands or falls on the facts of the case.

 

[cjbrown929]

WRONG again, my friend.

We frequently had customers sign a statement acknowledging that the (previous) contract had been rewritten (ie new terms) and was void.

Who said anything about the "court" rewriting the contract. Please try to thoroughly read and understand posts before you reply.

I stand by everything I say. If that makes me appear petty, so be it.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

WRONG again, my friend.

We frequently had customers sign a statement acknowledging that the (previous) contract had been rewritten (ie new terms) and was void.

Who said anything about the "court"?

And that was a decision by YOUR dealership, NOT a requirement of law.

I wish you would stop this personal vendetta because your petty little games are costing this issue to go too far into what YOU think and NOT what the law requires.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

and editing your post won't help.

Here is your post PRE-EDIT!

Originally Posted by cjbrown929
My emphasis throughout this thread has not been to hammer the dealer with fraud charges (even though I think there is plenty of evidence to support it), but rather to give the op an accurate overview of their rights and options.

Look at the situation this way: this car can NEVER be sold (legally) again unless the odo discrepancy is revealed, which substantially reduces its value.


To the op: thanks for your patience throughout this debate. If the dealer tells you that they don't have to rewrite the contract, they are not only wrong, but approaching criminal type behavior.
Contact the consumer affairs dept, dmv, and if necessary, the feds if they give you a hassle.

 

[cjbrown929]

look my friend, I meant if they wanted to keep the car...

Lets move on and let the op (if they choose) let us know the outcome.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

look my friend, I meant if they wanted to keep the car...

Lets move on and let the op (if they choose) let us know the outcome.

No let's NOT move on. You have spouted so much crap here that is OPINION and the way YOUR dealership might have done things but NOT based on statute or any case law.

You have continually claimed not to "hammer the dealer with fraud charges" and yet in the next paragraph state " If the dealer tells you that they don't have to rewrite the contract, they are not only wrong, but approaching criminal type behavior."

Not only is that irresponsible on a LEGAL ADVICE site, but if the OP actually listens to you and files suit with absolutely no evidence or basis in law to sustain such an action, you have not only wasted their time but also a few extra thousands of dollars.

And THAT is what pisses me off about you. The total disregard not only of the law but of the facts which have absolutely nothing to do with interjecting your experiences or biases into the mix.

 

[cjbrown929]

As I stated, the contract only need be rewritten if both parties agree that they want the sale to be completed LEGALLY.

The new contract would reflect the fact that the car has "unknown miles".

Your puerile assumptions put to shame your status as a senior member.

I would welcome hearing the outcome of the op's efforts to resolve this situation much more than your idiotic replies.

If you are a licensed attorney, I pray for your clients, and for all of the people you have misguided on this forum.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

As I stated, the contract only need be rewritten if both parties agree that they want the sale to be completed LEGALLY.

No, what you said and continued to say until you began editing your comments is the following:

IT DOESN'T MATTER if the dealer knew about the problem or not in terms of having to rewrite the contract.

I would emphasize that, regardless of whether the dealer knew about the odo problem, they HAVE to redo the contract.

I have added the bolded section for a reason.

Your puerile assumptions put to shame your status as a senior member.

Who is making assumptions?

1) Because the dealer put the incorrect miles on your contract, it is INVALID.

The mileage, as we've been told, is correct according to the odometer reading.

2) Because the contract is invalid, you have the CHOICE whether to sign a new one.

You made this ASSUMPTION based on no facts whatsoever. Where is the court order invalidating the contract? Where is the legal basis for invalidating the contract? In fact, where is any legal basis for invalidating the contract?

If they placed an actual figure for the miles on the contract and the title, EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE PROBLEM, they HAVE to redo the contract and place "unknown miles" on it. It's the LAW.

You have yet to post here any such law that requires the dealership to REDO the contract as you have assumed. The reason being there is no such law. THe contract, as I continue trying to impress upon your non-legal mind, is either void or not. THere is no legal authority to 'redo' anything.

Personally, I would just give the car back and get all of my $ back.

And under what theory of law have you pulled this rabbit out of your hat?

She gives the car back, all bets are off, the dealership can file suit to force her to pay the debt owed and she now loses the 'evidence' if it exists which MIGHT prove a fraud or not.

VERY good legal advice.

 

[Supmom810]

CJBrown and Belize Breeze,
Thank you both for your input. I have read all of what you both have to say and appreciate everything.
After speaking with the Certified Mechanic today, I have made an appt with an Attorney to discuss my options from a legal standpoint. The mechanic who we took the car to today, said it looks like there has been foul play with the odometer. I never really looked at it, only asked my son what the miles read, but apparantly the second and sixth number are out of alignment compared to the other four. Even the trip miles odometers fourth number is out of alignment. The speed sensor module is NOT a new one either in the mechanics opinion. We have decided to park the car except to have the CV joints replaced until I consult with the attorney to see what we should do. She suggested we do not fix the odometer at this point. Although this dealer that we bought the car from may have not done the tampering, by him telling me he replaced the sensor because the speedometer and odometer were not working, then disclosing actual miles, tells us and the attorney that he knew something and tried to hide it.
Again thank you and I will post the outcome once I know what happens.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

CJBrown and Belize Breeze,
Thank you both for your input. I have read all of what you both have to say and appreciate everything.
After speaking with the Certified Mechanic today, I have made an appt with an Attorney to discuss my options from a legal standpoint. The mechanic who we took the car to today, said it looks like there has been foul play with the odometer. I never really looked at it, only asked my son what the miles read, but apparantly the second and sixth number are out of alignment compared to the other four. Even the trip miles odometers fourth number is out of alignment. The speed sensor module is NOT a new one either in the mechanics opinion. We have decided to park the car except to have the CV joints replaced until I consult with the attorney to see what we should do. She suggested we do not fix the odometer at this point. Although this dealer that we bought the car from may have not done the tampering, by him telling me he replaced the sensor because the speedometer and odometer were not working, then disclosing actual miles, tells us and the attorney that he knew something and tried to hide it.
Again thank you and I will post the outcome once I know what happens.

The only thing I have a problem with in your post is that assumption that the dealer KNEW anything. This is a matter of fact for your attorney to either negotiate or the court to decide.

ANd that is what I've been trying to get through to everyone on this thread.

Now, you have a basis from which to act based on fact, not assumptions.

I would only suggest the following for references and referrals.

The Florida Bar
651 E. Jefferson Street
Tallahassee, FL 32399-2300
(850) 561-5600

 

[cjbrown929]

Supmom: I am hopeful that the lively debate concerning your issue helped you and your son. Good luck.

Belize: your anxieties are duly noted.

 

[cjbrown929]

belize: in this case, I based my advice on suspicion, not assumption. My suspicion(s) appear(s) to have borne fruit as I expected they might.

Thanks nonetheless for your energetic and emotional input.

Supmom: don't forget to ask your attorney about treble (triple) damages for fraud.

 

[cjbrown929]

VERY good legal advice.

Belize: I used your technique of selective quotation to produce the above evaluation you gave of my advice. You make me humble, and I look forward to our next debate.