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peaceful protest

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dave33

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? R.I. That is not where this occurred.

"Police brutality: police laugh after shooting woman peacefully protesting". This is a youtube video, and if you have the time check it out.

The question is... If a law enforcement agency supports and acts the way a whole agency does in this video, when does a law enforcement agency become a criminal enterprise? Is the only officer in the wrong the one who did the shooting or everyone whom did nothing?
 


CdwJava

Senior Member
As a note, the video of the laughter and such was apparently at a debrief much later on and NOT at the scene of the incident. While embarrassing, it is not uncommon to find what can be referred to as "gallows humor" among law enforcement, EMS and medical professionals when discussing tragic or violent events. Poor taste, certainly ... a violation of law or policy, by itself, no.

There is also no apparent proof that she was specifically targeted to be shot with a rubber bullet during the riot/protest/whatever it was, and I can only assume that she has some independent evidence to indicate that she WAS actually shot. An image that is floating about the internet with a bloody hole in the left cheek of a younger woman though attached to her name is NOT a photo of Ms. Ritter's injury.

Understand this happened about 6 years ago and there is also no record I can find of Ms. Ritter actually filing a lawsuit. I did find where a civilian review board found that no specific action by the officers could be identified as misconduct, but even that decision was several years old. If she filed a lawsuit, there is no word that I can find as to whether she prevailed, it settled out of court, or it was dismissed. Whatever happened, it was apparently less dramatic than the footage.

For that act to be a "criminal enterprise" you would have to show a LOT of other things besides her being hit with a rubber bullet at a protest and officers later laughing about it. There would have to be a conspiracy either to commit a criminal act or to cover up a criminal act after the fact, among other things. Laughing about it later on is hardly criminal. bad taste, perhaps ... poor timing and stupid to video, definitely.
 

dave33

Senior Member
Hey Carl, That incident by itself may not be much but the point is if the whole agency acts in such a way...
Is that men upholding the law or men condoning criminal behavior?

It takes a certain type of man to be entertained by a woman being abused. The whole department to laugh about the incident...
An investigation into finding the person or people respnsible was not even considered.
Many people serving jail time past and present have much more decency.
There are many videos showing all kinds of police behavior, this one shows the mindset of this department. Would you have confidence in this
department to conduct themselves in an honorable way?
 

OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
A search of Broward County court records implies she is a bad, bad girl, having been charged with possession of cocaine, cannabis, drug paraphenalia, two assaults on officers, several years before the video.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Hey Carl, That incident by itself may not be much but the point is if the whole agency acts in such a way...
Is that men upholding the law or men condoning criminal behavior?
What "criminal behavior" were they condoning by laughing at what happened? At least at the time of that video, no criminal malfeasance had been alleged. If she was intentionally targeted and struck with a rubber bullet in the head or other prohibited target zone in violation of policy and state law, then a criminal act may have occurred. At the time of the video, that had not been determined. And, from what i can gather, no criminal allegations were ever made. There may have been some malfeasance on the part of the police for utilizing rubber bullets in the first place, but I have not delved into the ultimate results of the 2006 riot and legal aftermath to find out anything more than there were complaints, some charges against protesters were dropped, and there were some claims paid off.

Laughing at something - even if it is sick and twisted - does not mean anyone condones it. If that were the case, then every person I know in the fields of public safety and emergency medicine are criminals.

It takes a certain type of man to be entertained by a woman being abused. The whole department to laugh about the incident...
That was not "the whole department." That appeared to be part of the emergency response team and was likely as part of a debrief the day after or the day OF the incident. We could get into a discussion of nervous laughter, the need to blow off steam, stress and other issues that might play a part in why this was laughed at, but, as I said, it might have been poorly timed and bad P.R., it is not part of any criminal enterprise.

An investigation into finding the person or people respnsible was not even considered.
How do you know that? Based upon a video including mere seconds of comment at a debrief? I read that a citizen's review board looked into it and found no wrongdoing. If so, then that would indicate that someone DI, in fact, look into the matter to determine if there was any malfeasance.

if rubber bullets were being launched into the crowd to drive them back, and the woman was standing in FRONT of the crowd, it would seem to me to be of little surprise that she might be hit.

As i said, if she was intentionally targeted with a shot that was aimed at a prohibited location (such as the head), and the weapons was used outside accepted policy and law, then I would agree that criminal action might be warranted. However, based solely on the video and what I read about this woman's incident, I cannot see that any criminal action was articulated.

There are many videos showing all kinds of police behavior, this one shows the mindset of this department. Would you have confidence in this department to conduct themselves in an honorable way?
I'm not defending the publication and release of that demonstration of gallows humor, but if you think that behind the scenes the cops, medics, firemen, emergency room nurses and doctors are NOT laughing at some of the tragedies they see, you would be mistaken. It is part of the coping mechanism used to keep them sane. Suffice it to say that without that sort of release - among others - most in those professions would not last very long. YOU try and be dour and serious all the time when dealing with what we/they do ... you'll either eat your gun or quit.

It happens. It is embarrassing when released to the public, to be sure, but there is nothing one can do to prevent it any more than one can prevent soldiers on a battle field from finding some form of twisted humor in their observations.

The coping mechanisms of emergency workers can be found discussed in psychology and related professional journals. If you look for them, you can find a number of these abstracts from peer-reviewed journals on line. And, if you have access to an online or brick and mortar library at a local college, you might be able to read a few of them yourself and get some idea where that humor plays into the coping process.

Nothing presented in the video screams of a criminal act. It indicates that, perhaps, there was a violation of policy in the deployment of rubber bullets, but there is insufficient ifo to determine that. Were the bullets being fired at the crowd in general, or Ms. Ritter in particular? Were they deployed within department policy? Were they being deployed and aimed where their users had been taught? And for the record, these are not easily aimed weapons - once you get more than a couple dozen yards downrange, the trajectory is difficult to predict. And, understand, that Ms. Ritter was kneeling when she got hit in the head ... at least I had been taught that these are deployed low so that the rounds strike legs or lower torso, or skip off the ground. If she was crouching, she only increased her chance of a head strike.

The video was bad PR, and it was a poor decision for someone to have recorded it or to have released it. The sergeant should not have made such a public display of the incident, and any blame for what transpired should be his ... but, it would be departmental discipline and not criminal.
 

dave33

Senior Member
The criminal behavior they were condoning was bshooting the woman several times. Criminal malfaesance had been alleged by the woman screaming "who shot me"! What do you mean "if she was targeted"? Isn't the fact that the same woman was shot more than once in the head
and body pretty much scream intent? The cops of course have a good enough understanding of the system to never admit anything. As you said, charges were dropped and claims paid off. I believe we all know what that means, the cops got caught on camera.
Maybe it wasn't the "whole department", but certainly a significant amount of officers. Them being the emergency response team only makes things worse. It's not the officer behind the desk that concerns me.
Although the issue seems to have died out, it seems likely that money was paid with certain stipulations. Stipulations such as an agreement not to discuss the issue.
We are not talking about firemen, doctors or anyone else, heck after this video they may take offense to being categorized in such a way.

"Nothing screams of a criminal act"? How about shooting a defenseless woman in a skirt and high heels? In the head and body?

The bottom line is the laughter is proof of the demeanor of an organization that is suppossed to be protecting citizens.
You may consider laughter to be an acceptable "release", but that certainly wasn't my response.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
The criminal behavior they were condoning was bshooting the woman several times.
Once again, how do you KNOW it was CRIMINAL? One can be struck by rubber bullets - even REAL bullets - and not have a crime committed.

Criminal malfaesance had been alleged by the woman screaming "who shot me"! What do you mean "if she was targeted"? Isn't the fact that the same woman was shot more than once in the head and body pretty much scream intent?
No, it does not. If screaming that you are a victim is enough to convict someone, they will have abandoned our system of justice entirely.

She may have been injured, she may have been injured by a rubber bullet, but it had not been established that she was shot INTENTIONALLY, UNLAWFULLY, and/or AGAINST POLICY. It is not against the law to launch rubber bullets against people under certain circumstances. Without delving into the background of the incident, I cannot say whether those conditions were met. But, apparently a citizens' review board DID evaluate the issue and found no malfeasance. I would have to assume that such a panel would be in a far better position to make this evaluation than you are I possibly could based upon a Youtube video.

The cops of course have a good enough understanding of the system to never admit anything. As you said, charges were dropped and claims paid off.
That's not uncommon in mass arrests and riot situations. LA paid off a suspect who shot an officer and crippled him because the return fire turned the shooter into a quadriplegic ... settling does not infer malfeasance, simply expediency and fiscal responsibility. Whether the bean counters in FL saw something bad on the horizon, who knows. And in this incident, I have not been able to find anything to indicate that the woman was paid off or ever filed anything. The fact she waited a few years may well have put any claim out of reach.

I believe we all know what that means, the cops got caught on camera.
Clearly they got caught chuckling. Bad press, poor timing, and an awkward and embarrassing moment. Not criminal.

"Nothing screams of a criminal act"? How about shooting a defenseless woman in a skirt and high heels? In the head and body?
Once again, no INTENTIONAL criminal act has been identified. The fact she was struck does not - by itself - imply any criminal act occurred, nor does it imply that a violation of policy even occurred. I can smack you with a baton and be justified ... I can shoot you with a .40 bullet from my Glock 22 and be justified ... the fact that you were struck does not mean that the act was NOT justified or even unlawful. More information is required to make that determination. And, given the fact that the officers were apparently cleared by a CITIZENS' review board, it would appear that no such evidence was uncovered. That does not mean that there was no civil liability, only that no individual or group of individuals was apparently identified as having violated law or procedure.

The bottom line is the laughter is proof of the demeanor of an organization that is suppossed to be protecting citizens.
You may consider laughter to be an acceptable "release", but that certainly wasn't my response.
As I said, it was embarrassing, and put them in a poor light. But, it was not criminal.
 

dave33

Senior Member
Once again, how do you KNOW it was CRIMINAL? One can be struck by rubber bullets - even REAL bullets - and not have a crime committed.


No, it does not. If screaming that you are a victim is enough to convict someone, they will have abandoned our system of justice entirely.

She may have been injured, she may have been injured by a rubber bullet, but it had not been established that she was shot INTENTIONALLY, UNLAWFULLY, and/or AGAINST POLICY. It is not against the law to launch rubber bullets against people under certain circumstances. Without delving into the background of the incident, I cannot say whether those conditions were met. But, apparently a citizens' review board DID evaluate the issue and found no malfeasance. I would have to assume that such a panel would be in a far better position to make this evaluation than you are I possibly could based upon a Youtube video.


That's not uncommon in mass arrests and riot situations. LA paid off a suspect who shot an officer and crippled him because the return fire turned the shooter into a quadriplegic ... settling does not infer malfeasance, simply expediency and fiscal responsibility. Whether the bean counters in FL saw something bad on the horizon, who knows. And in this incident, I have not been able to find anything to indicate that the woman was paid off or ever filed anything. The fact she waited a few years may well have put any claim out of reach.


Clearly they got caught chuckling. Bad press, poor timing, and an awkward and embarrassing moment. Not criminal.


Once again, no INTENTIONAL criminal act has been identified. The fact she was struck does not - by itself - imply any criminal act occurred, nor does it imply that a violation of policy even occurred. I can smack you with a baton and be justified ... I can shoot you with a .40 bullet from my Glock 22 and be justified ... the fact that you were struck does not mean that the act was NOT justified or even unlawful. More information is required to make that determination. And, given the fact that the officers were apparently cleared by a CITIZENS' review board, it would appear that no such evidence was uncovered. That does not mean that there was no civil liability, only that no individual or group of individuals was apparently identified as having violated law or procedure.


As I said, it was embarrassing, and put them in a poor light. But, it was not criminal.


Carl, shooting an unarmed woman is criminal. Although without an admission you cannot prove intent. This act cannot be justified. But cops being cops they will never admit to making a mistake.

You know Carl, you have over 25,000 posts. In all those posts have you ever made a mistake? Have you ever admitted to making an error?
When in uniform or on duty, have you ever admitted to overreacting?Making the wrong choice? I doubt it highly. Does this mean you are perfect?
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Carl, shooting an unarmed woman is criminal.
And you know that she was specifically targeted ... how?

Although without an admission you cannot prove intent. This act cannot be justified. But cops being cops they will never admit to making a mistake.
Hogwash. If that were the case, none would ever be disciplined or terminated ... many are, you just don't read about it in the papers.

If the police were lobbing rubber bullets at a crowd of protesters, and you were to stand in front of that crowd, would you expect to be immune from being struck? These things are not always fired as specifically aimed weaponry but often as aimed towards the mass ahead of you (and aimed low). It would defy common sense to stand in the way of a volley of rubber bullets, but it appears that this is what she may have done.

You know Carl, you have over 25,000 posts. In all those posts have you ever made a mistake? Have you ever admitted to making an error?
Yep.

When in uniform or on duty, have you ever admitted to overreacting?Making the wrong choice? I doubt it highly.
Then you would be wrong. Though I cannot recall a time I OVER reacted, I do recall more than a few times where I made a choice that I believed could have been better.

Does this mean you are perfect?
Hardly. But don't tell that to my children ... or my wife. ;)
 

dave33

Senior Member
And you know that she was specifically targeted ... how?


Hogwash. If that were the case, none would ever be disciplined or terminated ... many are, you just don't read about it in the papers.

If the police were lobbing rubber bullets at a crowd of protesters, and you were to stand in front of that crowd, would you expect to be immune from being struck? These things are not always fired as specifically aimed weaponry but often as aimed towards the mass ahead of you (and aimed low). It would defy common sense to stand in the way of a volley of rubber bullets, but it appears that this is what she may have done.


Yep.


Then you would be wrong. Though I cannot recall a time I OVER reacted, I do recall more than a few times where I made a choice that I believed could have been better.


Hardly. But don't tell that to my children ... or my wife. ;)

Carl, I know she was targeted because she was shot. It would be a miracle if she was shot repeatedly without being targeted.

With all due respect Carl, could you point out a specific post when you admitted to making an error.
Although you can now think of a situation when the choice could have been better, did your report reflect as much?
If it turns out you aren't perfect your secret is safe with me.;)
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Carl, I know she was targeted because she was shot. It would be a miracle if she was shot repeatedly without being targeted.

With all due respect Carl, could you point out a specific post when you admitted to making an error.
Although you can now think of a situation when the choice could have been better, did your report reflect as much?
If it turns out you aren't perfect your secret is safe with me.;)
Dave -

You are now shifting to your opinion on the matter. It is not fact and may not be (nor likely is) the reality of the situation.

Beyond that, you're just picking on Carl :p
 

dave33

Senior Member
:D
Dave -

You are now shifting to your opinion on the matter. It is not fact and may not be (nor likely is) the reality of the situation.

Beyond that, you're just picking on Carl :p
Alright guys, we all have a difference of opinion. It was a pleasure.:)
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Carl, I know she was targeted because she was shot. It would be a miracle if she was shot repeatedly without being targeted.
Wow ... so, no one gets hit accidentally? I can pretty much guarantee that few - if any - specific protesters were targeted in a volley of rubber bullets. It can sometimes simply be dumb luck if you get hit. "Spray and pray" is the mantra that comes to mind.

I don't know how many rounds of rubber bullets were expended, or if she was specifically targeted. Apparently both a prosecutor and a citizens' review board found nothing wrong with it. You, based solely on the claims made in a 3 year old video about a 6 year old event have come to a different conclusion with far less information than was available to any of the involved parties. I find that a wee bit of a stretch.

With all due respect Carl, could you point out a specific post when you admitted to making an error.
No, because I don't track those things. In fact, I don't track ANY specific posts on this site, and my "subscriptions" have not resulted in auto emails to threads in about 3 years so I tend to miss a lot of replies, too. You're welcome to search if you'd like ...

Although you can now think of a situation when the choice could have been better, did your report reflect as much?
Our reports do not reflect our options, only our observations and actions. Any report I wrote would reflect what I DID, not what I wish I had done.

When there has needed to be a mea culpa it has been made to my Chief (or, when I was a patrol officer, to my sergeant). When it has been brought to my attention through other means, I considered my actions in whatever venue was appropriate.

But, this thread that you started is not about MY decisions, but about one woman who was apparently shot two or three times by rubber bullets, who failed to make any claim at the time, and waited three years to make an issue out of it and apparently never followed through. I have to assume that the attorneys and citizens that reviewed the incidents involved in that incident have to have had more information that you or I did and they failed to find any evidence of malfeasance.

Bottom line: Sorry she got hit by rubber bullets. Next time, don't get between the police and the riot. And, I'm sorry that the debrief video went public - it was embarrassing. But, the debrief video did not implicate anyone in any criminal act as your initial post implied.
 

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