Reporting format

[candg918]

What is the name of your state? OK

I am trying to summarize several years of my mother's financial activity.
Her estate is not in probate because everything she had was either in her trust or POD accounts.

My sister opened a checking account for my mother serveral years ago. My mother's name was on the account but I do not believe her SSN was given as the primary owner since I did not receive the annual IRS statement; all of the funds placed in the account were transfers from one of her other accounts. This was done because my sister did not have access to my mother's other accounts on which I received copies of the monthly statements and could see what was being done. My sister has retained all of the records on this account and will not provide them to me. I believe a significant part of the funds in this account were NOT used for my mother's benefit.

Should the bank provide me with copies of the statements on that account since my mother was not the primary owner?

I need to account for changes in asset value, interest and annuity income, checks, and wire transfers into and out of brokerage accounts and bank accounts. I hoped someone knew of a site - even another state's probate forms - that could provide me with an example to work from and which would likely be acceptable to OK legal action to document financial dealings. (Both my brother and sister have threatened legal action if they don't get what they want out of my mother's estate. My mother's lawyer practices in another state and would not be able to represent me.)

 

[Dandy Don]

Only the executor of the estate has the legal authority to ask for the information you are looking for. So file to be executor to get letters testamentary you need to request information from financial authorities, and later on get probate closed if there is no official estate and claim that you were "mistaken" about the assets.

It's rather obvious that your sister probably got power of attorney to handle these transactions, and that POA expired when the death occurred. You need to be finding out if your state has laws against abuse of POA so that if abuse occurred, you will need to bring charges against her. It may be hard for you to prove that she didn't spend everything on mother's care but hopefully she kept some receipts, but are you trying to say she looted the estate for her personal benefit?

DANDY DON IN OKLAHOMA ([email protected])

 

[candg918]

I have not opened probate because she has no assets subject to probate. I am the executor(document date 1993), successor trustee(1993), and durable POA(2000) for my mother - all set-up long before her competence became suspect. Even if my sister over-rode the POA, the trust would not have been affected. I guess to get the information I need, I will have to open probate if the bank will not accept a copy of the will and a death certificate as proof of my capacity.

Fortunately relatively little (approx. 5% of estate) was in this account and everything else was in her trust. The problem is that the account held my mother's funds yet was jointly named with my sister's name first. Does the account belong to sister or both equally? If it is sister's, they should not tell me anything, correct? Right now I am tempted to treat everything that went into that account as a gift to my sister unless she proves that it was spent on our mother!

My siblings have both already threated me with lawyers unless I meet their demands. Yes, even though I cannot use the one who drew up my parents' estate plan, he has given me a reference which I will use if they make good on their threats. I am getting my "ducks in a row" for him because I want this to be OVER!!!.

 

[BlondiePB]

I have not opened probate because she has no assets subject to probate. I am the executor(document date 1993), successor trustee(1993), and durable POA(2000) for my mother - all set-up long before her competence became suspect. Even if my sister over-rode the POA, the trust would not have been affected. I guess to get the information I need, I will have to open probate if the bank will not accept a copy of the will and a death certificate as proof of my capacity.

Fortunately relatively little (approx. 5% of estate) was in this account and everything else was in her trust. The problem is that the account held my mother's funds yet was jointly named with my sister's name first. Does the account belong to sister or both equally? If it is sister's, they should not tell me anything, correct? Right now I am tempted to treat everything that went into that account as a gift to my sister unless she proves that it was spent on our mother!

My siblings have both already threated me with lawyers unless I meet their demands. Yes, even though I cannot use the one who drew up my parents' estate plan, he has given me a reference which I will use if they make good on their threats. I am getting my "ducks in a row" for him because I want this to be OVER!!!.

Ahhhh....squibblings! Typically, banks have the primary owner listed first on accounts and that person is the one who the bank reports interest to the IRS. Did your sister deposit money in this account too?

 

[candg918]

No, my sister did not deposit money into the account. She used her home address on it. She also did not provide me with interest 1099s for it even though I am the one who was responsible for collecting this information for the accountant.

My mother and I both placed money in this account to make it easier to pay my mother's bills while she was visiting my sister; my mother had both her brokerage checkbook and her home checkbook with her during the visit so could move money easily. I need to figure out how they went through $40,000 in 11 months while I was still paying all of the credit card bills which should have covered her drug bills.

My mother also had some unclaimed funds that I believe my sister claimed for her using her address. I don't imagine there is any way to track those. My sister will not provide me with any information. I don't know what to do on the tax return since I do not know which financial institution had the funds. They were not able to claim my father's since they needed the will and death certificate (which I have).

I am responsible for filing my mother's estate tax returns. Oklahoma has a 3 year lookback for disbursements and the account was open during this time period. Since I am tracking donations to Goodwill, I'd better figure out this $40K.

After reading some of the responses to my initial post, I did contact the bank and they were willing to use my mother's will plus her death certificate plus my father's death certificate (he predeceased my mother but her will was not changed following his death and I was named sucessor executor in both wills) since he was named the initial executor. Thank goodness!

There is a lot to be said about being an only child when it comes to setting an estate!

 

[BlondiePB]

She also did not provide me with interest 1099s for it even though I am the one who was responsible for collecting this information for the accountant.

Did you read my post above about the bank reporting interest on this account to the IRS for your sister? The way you stated the account is set up, she would receive the 1099 and be responsible for taxes on the interest.

My mother and I both placed money in this account to make it easier to pay my mother's bills while she was visiting my sister; my mother had both her brokerage checkbook and her home checkbook with her during the visit so could move money easily. I need to figure out how they went through $40,000 in 11 months while I was still paying all of the credit card bills which should have covered her drug bills.

Now that you have access to the account, I have no doubt that you will check into all of this.

 

[candg918]

RE Interest 1099

I do not know whose SSN it was reported to if it was reported. I initially assumed it was not an interest earning account.

Sister tried to obtain POA and to be named co-trustee and executor after my father's death. Fortunately, my mother's attorney and financial advisor were able to convince my mother to leave the documents as they were originally drafted. Relatively little could have been misappropriated.

My latest thinking is to assume that what my mother had been spending prior to this visit was "reasonable" living expenses during this time. The remainder should be treated as a "gift" to my sister and let her prove otherwise. I realize this might require the filing of revised prior years tax returns. Do you see a problem with this?


Thanks for your insight!!

 

[BlondiePB]

My latest thinking is to assume that what my mother had been spending prior to this visit was "reasonable" living expenses during this time. The remainder should be treated as a "gift" to my sister and let her prove otherwise. I realize this might require the filing of revised prior years tax returns. Do you see a problem with this?

It would be inappropriate to comment on your latest thinking.

 

[candg918]

Why? Do you see a legal or tax issue with it?

It might be the only way to force my sister to produce records I need for the estate tax return. Forms I sent to her to complete in November still have not been submitted, and I have only 9 mionths to complete the estate return. I've resorted to sending everything with delivery confirmations so I can prove she got the paperwork.

Do you have any other suggestions? I doubt she would reply to a request from my mother's attorney since it is a trust not probate issue and the court would not normally be involved to compell her to produce the documents.

 

[BlondiePB]

My latest thinking is to assume ...

This is why.

It might be the only way to force my sister to produce records I need for the estate tax return.

For the third time, the joint account will not be reported to the IRS under your mother's name because your sister is listed first. Any interest on this account will be your sister's tax liablility not the estate's.

 

[candg918]

Thank you for all of your help but I am getting more confused as I go into the problem.

Interest would not if it was reported to my sister's SSN, but if there are gifts of my mother's money to my sister from this account then it would trigger a gift tax return since my sister also received her max exempt gift those years.

Or ... are you saying that as soon as money was placed into the account that it became my sister's money as well as my mother's. Would that have triggered a "gift" for IRS purposes of 1/2 of the total amount transferred no matter what the funds were spent on?

The original intent of the account was to make it easier to pay my mother's bills during the time she was with my sister. Neither my mother nor I would have permitted my mother's money to be placed into this account if it were no longer be considered to be my mother's exclusively. I gathered after my mother returned to my home that my sister opened the account with a check my mother made out to sister without my mother present and just had her sign the signature card later. I did not know about the account for several weeks so had no input into the titling of the account (it should have been in the name of the xxx Revocable Trust, dated xxx with my mother as trustee and with my sister having signature rights).

All of these transactions occurred before my mother officially resigned as trustee on her accounts so I did not do a full accounting until I started the estate tax return and realized that I have to cover that time period and am finding how much was actually spent.

I don't know what to do about the estate tax return now if the money is considered jointly owned. Should I ask the tax board?

Thanks again for your help!!!

 

[BlondiePB]

Or ... are you saying that as soon as money was placed into the account that it became my sister's money as well as my mother's.

Bingo! When one is a fiduciary for another person's money, NEVER allow a third party access to that money.

Would that have triggered a "gift" for IRS purposes of 1/2 of the total amount transferred no matter what the funds were spent on?

Sorry, I don't do tax law - just do taxes. You really need to discuss this with a CPA that specializes in tax law.

Thanks again for your help!!!

You are very welcome.

 

[candg918]

At the time, my mother was still handling - rather messing up - her own financial affairs; I can account for all of the transactions made once I took over. I'll look for an OK CPA since our current one is in her original home state; we have no federal forms - just state.

For my children's sake, I want to die in a state with no estate paperwork!!!

Thanks again for all of the help!